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Thread: Get me a cigarette! (Argentine RB first Cerrosafe casting)

  1. #1
    Boolit Master ohland's Avatar
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    Exclamation Get me a cigarette! (Argentine RB first Cerrosafe casting)

    Well, I finally went and did my first muzzle casting today. Old retrobate put the cheap cooking ladle somewhere, so I grabbed an old coffe can (metal!), used a vise-grip for a handle, and turned on the heat gun. A few minutes later, the alloy was liquid with no dross, and I poured it (mostly) into the muzzle. Waited 30 minutes like Brownell advised.

    Attachment 139820

    Well, I am not sure that a muzzle casting and a chamber casting cool at the same rate as the muzzle casting had to be beat out of the bore. It does look nice, shiney, smooth, edges of the grooves are well defined.

    Instead of futzing around with math, I just rolled the cast around until I got the highest reading of .445, and that is a lot better than buying multiple special H&I die sizes.Some may doubt the accuracy of my dimensions, but I thought absolute accuracy to the ten thousandth is a little excessive.

    Attachment 139821

    So I'll start scrounging for an H&I, a 446-ish mould, and we'll see.
    Belle, Belle, Belle!
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  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master
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    446 just happens to be the "advertised diameter" of the 11mm Mauser, and I believe the 44-77 Sharps. Both Lyman and RCBS have made molds for this diameter in the recent past.

    Robert

  3. #3
    Boolit Master ohland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mk42gunner View Post
    446 just happens to be the "advertised diameter" of the 11mm Mauser, and I believe the 44-77 Sharps. Both Lyman and RCBS have made molds for this diameter in the recent past. Robert
    I know that the old retrobate has fired the bottlenecked 43 Spanish cases without issue.
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  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy jugulater's Avatar
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    the 43 Spanish and the 44-77 are very close. i do believe at one point the 43 spanish was called the 43-77. my roller in .43 had many problems and the barrel was badly pitted. the barrel on it ran about .444-.445, but it wouldnt chamber any boolits over .442 .

    if you run into the same tight chamber issues i did you may be able to simply run a 44-77 chamber reamer into the current 43 chamber and open up the neck/shoulder area.

    hopefully one of the many geniuses that reside on this forum will come by and correct me if im wrong.

  5. #5
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    ................I have a very nice 1879 Argentine contract Remington RB in 43 Rem Spanish or 11.15x58R or 11mm Spanish. As a general rule, and what Lyman historically provided was a 370gr RN slug of a nominal .439" OD. That's close. RCBS also offers a design which is a FN of nominal 370grs and .439". However there is a interesting whooptie that Remington included in it's Rifle design. If you had taken a chamber cast, you would have seen it. My rifle has a .440" groove diameter and IIRC a .431" bore.

    It is possible you do have a groove dia of .445" or so. These are old rifles, and while some truly phenomenal machine work was done back then, sometimes desired dimensions varied, for several reasons. Also these rifles were used with black powder, which actually explodes and will bump up a softer lead slug. Since it was a military rifle intended for combat, some dimensions or dimensional relationships that worked with BP don't work so well with smokeless.

    The curveball we've been tossed is that there is a considerable amount of freebore ahead of the chamber that is several thousandths OVER the boolit OD.



    LEFT: The case had a .440" slug inserted, reversed. It was then chambered and the boolit was forced back into the case. There is right at 1/2" of freebore. RIGHT: This is a 45 Cal Lyman 525gr Postell that had been driven into the throat to get a look at the leade (where the rifling starts). The single pink line shows the angle of the leade. The 2 parallel lines below it give the length of the leade. I'm not at home right now so I don't have my info with me to quote dimensions. Suffice to say that with either boolit, you CANNOT reach the lands with them in the case.

    I believe that besides the generous 'jump' provided, the generous OD of the freebore was thoughtfully provided to help with the ability to repeatedly chamber ammunition with BP fouling present. So yes, there is considerable windage around the bullet when a round is loaded. I seriously doubt that you'd be able to chamber a round with a boolit sized much over (if any at all) the groove diameter.



    LEFT: Dan at Mountain Moulds and I worked to produce the design shown. It weighs 420grs. It's reason for being was to be able to be strongly seated in the caseneck, and also reach the lands. RIGHT: These are 2 slugs which have been sized down and then paper patched, as the original ammo was paper patched.

    However if your rifle has a decent bore it can provide some decent shooting.



    LEFT: RCBS slug with 23.0 SR4759 RIGHT: RCBS and Lyman slugs with 28.0 H4198. These were fired at 50 yards, issue sights and trigger. Slugs unscaled and the charges were thrown from a measure.

    I did try shooting it with BP once. I'd loaded 20 rounds and I'm sure I did everything wrong IIRC the Bertram cases will hold about 88.0grs of 2Fg to the base of the caseneck.

    ................Buckshot
    Last edited by Buckshot; 05-21-2015 at 01:58 AM.
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  6. #6
    Boolit Master ohland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buckshot View Post
    ................I have a very nice 1879 Argentine contract Remington RB in 43 Rem Spanish or 11.15x58R or 11mm Spanish. As a general rule, and what Lyman historically provided was a 370gr RN slug of a nominal .439" OD. That's close. RCBS also offers a design which is a FN of nominal 370grs and .439". However there is a interesting whooptie that Remington included in it's Rifle design. If you had taken a chamber cast, you would have seen it. My rifle has a .440" groove diameter and IIRC a .431" bore.

    It is possible you do have a groove dia of .445" or so. These are old rifles, and while some truly phenomenal machine work was done back then, sometimes desired dimensions varied, for several reasons. Also these rifles were used with black powder, which actually explodes and will bump up a softer lead slug. Since it was a military rifle intended for combat, some dimensions or dimensional relationships that worked with BP don't work so well with smokeless.................Buckshot
    That's why I didn't drop hammer on that .446 M-die expander plug. I know the groove diameter, but the chamber neck and throat may be quite different.

    Wow, got me my .446 plug from Buckshot. Load up my .446 diameter boolit. Try to chamber it and.. hot day-um, Buckshot sent me a messed up plug...

    Cerrosafe is my friend. Now to see if I can find a cheap ladle... Sure, I can use a tin can, with a "spout" bent into it, but that's not the same...
    Belle, Belle, Belle!
    Purty Gu-ur-url!

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

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    nice job so far, but I'll add 2 cents if you don't mind
    1) next time you muzzle cast, mushroom head the blob-you may find some details you need to know about and may need correcting.
    2) don't spend any more money on this until you have the chamber/throat cast in hand. There is a LOT of bad info out there regarding this cartridge any many similar cartridges. For example, in BARNES Cartridges of the World, he states that 348 can be used as is, just expand the neck up. Then he says they must be rechambered to 348. Very confusing.
    The RCBS mould 43-370 drops soft lead at about 448 not 439 as is commonly quoted. 43 Spanish was never paper patched.....
    I could go on and on and on as this is one of my personnal hot buttons, ...but

    Get your chamber cast in hand, cast it proud, or with a mushroom head. Not a lot, just want to get the extreme base diameter in chamber.
    Try to get the leade as well.

    gotta go

  8. #8
    Boolit Master

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    ps if you want that 446 expander gone I'll take it I could use it. Let me know how much.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master ohland's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ascast View Post
    ps if you want that 446 expander gone I'll take it I could use it. Let me know how much.
    When Buckshot asked for dimensions, I figured out real quick that groove diameter does not have to equal neck / throat diameter. The bore and chamber look spany new, almost modern. But casting it will prove what I need.

    I told Buckshot that I'd have to cast it first...
    Belle, Belle, Belle!
    Purty Gu-ur-url!

  10. #10
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    "The RCBS mould 43-370 drops soft lead at about 448 not 439 as is commonly quoted."

    ...................RCBS offers these similar 2 moulds: PN 55005 labeled 43-370 FN which IS a nominal .439". This is intended for the 11mm Spanish, 11mm Remington-Spanish, or 11.15x58R Spanish. The other RCBS mould is PN 082093 which is labeled 44-370 FN, and this one does drop a nominal .446" slug, which is intended for the M1871/84 Mauser. Lyman also lists a mould for the "11mm Mauser" which is also intended for the repeater. The ORIGINAL 11mm Mauser was the M1871 which was a single shot. The BORES of both of these Mauser rifles are the same. However the groove of the M1871 single shot was .451". The groove diameter of the repeater was reduced .005".

    The RCBS 43-370 FN was, and still is listed as a "Special Order Mould". Apparently their PN's have changed as it's shown as #585. The previous number I gave is off my original RCBS mould box.

    The largest boolit that will still chamber (just barely) in my rifle is .440".



    Obviously the M1879 Remington RB is down front. It's bayonet is just above it.
    Up top is a M1884 Td Springfield, M1871 Mauser, and then a MkIV Martini-Henry 577-450. Each is a close contemporary of the other, and each exhibit a completely different action type.



    This is what I use for pouring Cerrosafe into chambers. A brass funnel soldered to some 1/4" tubing.

    .................Buckshot






    Last edited by Buckshot; 05-23-2015 at 04:14 AM.
    Father Grand Caster watches over you my brother. Go now and pour yourself a hot one. May the Sacred Silver Stream be with you always

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    "The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools such as those who made him their president."

    Shrink the State End the Fed Balance the budget Make a profit Leave an inheritance

  11. #11
    Boolit Master

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    "The RCBS mould 43-370 drops soft lead at about 448 not 439 as is commonly quoted."

    Actually, I made a typo in that I meant to type 44-370. I was not aware a 43-370 was available. Nice to learn new stuff. thanks!

    I was not aware the '71 was bigger by design. One or both have the "as made gage" size stamped on the side of the barrel. I don't remember if that was bore or grove, but I think it was bore. I verified that a few years ago when I owned several 71/84's. I wonder if I could find those notes??




  12. #12
    Boolit Master

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    The largest boolit that will still chamber (just barely) in my rifle is .440".

    that was in the Spanish? I had an Argentine briefly and shot the RCBS 44-370 on some amount of 4759 with about 3" groups at 100yds. The brass was Buffalo Arms ( ?) re-swaged 348 WCF. I kept the loaded rounds after the gun went ( big mistake) and they will not fit in to my Peabody.
    Job relocate, blah blah I think it has been 15 or 16 years since I was fooling with that,,,,
    good god.....

  13. #13
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    ..............Yup, .440" is it. Any larger and the cartridge won't chamber. The neck would be too tight. I actually do not need to resize the cases after firing. A slug sized to .439" is a slight 'slip fit' in the neck. It shoots well like that but wouldn't stand much rough handling. Reloaded that way is better if you 'Taper Crimp' the slug using a 44 Mag size die.

    ................Buckshot
    Father Grand Caster watches over you my brother. Go now and pour yourself a hot one. May the Sacred Silver Stream be with you always

    Proud former Shooters.Com Cast Bullet alumnus and plank owner.

    "The Republic can survive a Barack Obama, who is, after all, merely a fool. It is less likely to survive a multitude of fools such as those who made him their president."

    Shrink the State End the Fed Balance the budget Make a profit Leave an inheritance

  14. #14
    Boolit Grand Master

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    ohland, when doing a cast with cerrosafe just wait until the alloy is hardened just like using a boolit mold, then push it out. Wait 30 minutes then the alloy will back up to the diameter of the gun part it was cast in. The Cerrosafe expands back to the guns dimensions in a half hour.

    I have a 71 Mauser that the bore is .457" for quite a ways in front of the chamber. I size down the Lee 300 gr. .452" pistol boolit to .450" as this is the largest boolit that will chamber in the case neck. Works very good and is more accurate than the Lyman .446" boolit.
    I was drawn for a cow elk hunt here in Az. and am thinking of using this rifle.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master ohland's Avatar
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    Dropped hammer on some pure pot goodness, 20#s of pure lead. Got to drop my WW BHN down to @10 (my SWAG!) in order to get things to work.

    If I have about 20#s of 19 BHN, how much WW do I have to dump before achieving @10 BHN by backfilling with pure lead in a 20# pot? I am NOT doing MATH. How many ingots do I need to add? Got to get me an ingot mould... Make it look like I know what I'm doing...

    How can I keep my lead alloy lit? It is a hard draw at the bong....
    Belle, Belle, Belle!
    Purty Gu-ur-url!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check