Another reason to powder coat

[Dragonheart]

You have to shoot indoors or at night to really see the smoke. When we shoot IDPA at night with the lights behind us, a shooter doing a double tap using lubed bullets and you can't see the target. When I shoot PC it is just like shooting jacketed.

[slim1836]

I currently choose to PC, many of my stored .45 ACP and .308 cast & lubed boolits are oxidizing. I know I should rotate them but do not shoot that much now-a-days. I'm not liking the idea of pulling them down, recasting, and reloading them. PC'ed boolits, I hope, will not do that. I cast and reload more than I shoot so stockpiles add up.

If I get minute of buck at 100 yards with cast, powder coated boolits I am happy, happy, happy. My groups are kill zone, but not MOA. If I want sniper quality rounds, I can reload factory produced bullets for target and hunting loads which are MOA. My QC is not that of factories. I have several factory bullets loaded up for certain occasions if the need arises. 99% of my shooting is at 100 yards or less anyway.

I cast, PC, and reload because I enjoy it, period. I like the fact I can turn wheel weights and other lead into something I can send down range in a variety of weapons with enough accuracy to obtain personal satisfaction. I don't get picky as others as far as blends of alloys are concerned and therefore my end result is perhaps not a good as theirs are, heck, I don't have a hardness tester, concentricity equip. or some of the other equipment more dedicated casters have. I'm just a basic caster and reloader.

Everyone has their own expectations, that's what makes the world go around. If you demand 1 MOA and cannot achieve it, look somewhere else or keep trying other methods, and then share your results so others can learn from you. Me, I like MOB(buck).

Slim

[Dragonheart]

When you powder coat bullet hardness is a non-issue because the coating is acting as a jacket, leaving a clean lead free bore. I powder coat range lead however it comes out of the pot. In my handguns I am getting outstanding accuracy. I already have thousands of jacketed rifle bullets, if I want exceptional accuracy at a distance, so I really don't need a MOA powder coated bullet for a rifle.

[gloob]

a fast string of traditionally lubed bullets can create quite the cloud.

Correct. Lubed bullets can create quite the cloud, even from a single shot.

a shooter doing a double tap using lubed bullets and you can't see the target.

Incorrect. You notice the lubed bullets that are smoking. You do not notice the ones that aren't. I could do a 3 second mag dump right in front of you, indoors, and you wouldn't even be able to tell I was shooting cast bullets.

If you want to have a powder coat fantasy thread, without having the occasional interruption from reality, have it in the powder coat forum.

[Dragonheart]

Correct. Lubed bullets can create quite the cloud, even from a single shot.

Incorrect. You notice the lubed bullets that are smoking. You do not notice the ones that aren't. I could do a 3 second mag dump right in front of you, indoors, and you wouldn't even be able to tell I was shooting cast bullets.



If you want to have a powder coat fantasy , without having the occasional interruption from reality, have it in the powder coat forum.

You obviously don't shoot at night, but the "Reality" you seem to be unable to accept is there is a big difference in the smoke level of a lubed bullet vs a plated, jacketed or powder coated bullet using the same powder. If you have a problem with powder coated bullets fine that's your choice, shoot whatever you want and believe whatever you want. But if you can get past your arrogance for a moment you might see this thread is "Another Reason To Powder Coat" so I think those that have commented about powder coating are in the proper place. If commits regarding powder coating offends you then maybe you should consider not reading any threads with the words "Powder Coating"

[MBTcustom]

I used to shoot RCBS green lube. Talk about an indoor range eye burner! That was like peeling onions at the bench!
I havnt shot indoors in years, so I can't speak to the smoke level of more modern/appropriate lubes.
However, I will concede that with PC, it's no longer a consideration.
I never saw a side by side demonstration of lubes that do or do not smoke, but that would be an awesome subject for another thread.

Personally, I like PC. For me, it's strictly for informal plinking etc etc, because 99.99999% of the shooting I do is very much accuracy oriented. PC is something cool I like to keep in my bag of tricks. Someday I'll be teaching my daughter to shoot, and reload, and nice pretty bullets might make things more palatable to her, and make it fun.
Heck, the whole reason we cast in the first place is for the fun of it, and PC makes it even funner sometimes.
It's all good!

[runfiverun]

gloob:
your I'm right, and your all wrong, attitude is getting a bit old.
you may wish to re-read your typed words before hitting the post button.

I don't wanna have to do it for you.

[Dragonheart]

I used to shoot RCBS green lube. Talk about an indoor range eye burner! That was like peeling onions at the bench!
I havnt shot indoors in years, so I can't speak to the smoke level of more modern/appropriate lubes.
However, I will concede that with PC, it's no longer a consideration.
I never saw a side by side demonstration of lubes that do or do not smoke, but that would be an awesome subject for another thread.

Personally, I like PC. For me, it's strictly for informal plinking etc etc, because 99.99999% of the shooting I do is very much accuracy oriented. PC is something cool I like to keep in my bag of tricks. Someday I'll be teaching my daughter to shoot, and reload, and nice pretty bullets might make things more palatable to her, and make it fun.
Heck, the whole reason we cast in the first place is for the fun of it, and PC makes it even funner sometimes.
It's all good!

Hi Tim,

I have just completed my first round of accuracy testing of powder coated 230 grain 45 ACP round nose bullets. My test used 6 powders with a 0.2 separation between charges starting at the recommended starting load and going up to maxium with each powder. My test gun was a Kimber Gold Match, that has posted groups well under one inch using jacketed bullets, locked into a Ransom Rest. The test range was 25 yards, and 24 rounds were fired through the gun first to assure the Ransom Rest had a firm lock.

Out of the six tested powders I have six 5 shot loads whose group size was under 2 inches. Out of 27 five shot test loads (135 rounds) the largest group fired was 3.4 inches and that was a maxium load with an average muzzle velocity of 866 FPS, obviously not a standard target load. I have more to do as I plan to test several more powders with this bullet before moving into a SWC bullet design in the 180 - 200 grain range, but one thing is apparent to me, with the test targets to prove it, powder coated bullets are accurate. This is just another reason for those with an open mind to give powder coating a try.

[Yodogsandman]

My PC rifle loads smoke! I wasn't even aware of it until the guys down wind at the range said so! Grey colored smoke, more than I recall seeing when shooting lubed boolits. Check your own PC'd rifle rounds for confirmation, I'll bet yours smoke, too!

[Maximumbob54]

None of my rifle loads have smoked so far. I find that very odd. Low pressure loads?

[Yodogsandman]

Clippin' HV but, even at 1850FPS in the SKS's. Now, I've been using PC as a tool to add size to my boolits, I wonder if that's the reason for it?

[runfiverun]

if you could capture some of your boolits and look at the bases that might answer some of the smoke questions.

[45r]

I shot some emerald green p coated NOE 311247's over 11 grains RE-7 in my 300BLK rem bolt gun.
They went 3/4 inch at 55 yards and 1 1/2 inch at 85 yards.
That's as good as ones lubed with CR and won't need to clean my can near as much.
Won't be using lube any more for 300BLK.
Accuracy is better than what I've read and very glad I gave it a try.

[gloob]

your I'm right, and your all wrong, attitude is getting a bit old.

My experience and knowledge seems to encompass what everyone here is saying, plus a little more, is all. If all you have ever seen are green M&M's, then you would think all M&M's are green. I am eating the red ones. If I was wrong, you might consider that I have a bad or arrogant attitude. But go back and read what I wrote and consider the possibility that I am right. See if that changes the "attitude" that you infer when you read it.

If someone says that all M&M's are green, and you are holding a bag full of red M&Ms, then you know the other guy is in a state of ignorance. Not in the offensive meaning of the word. Just the meaning of "lack of knowledge." Now that guy goes on to insist on his stance, despite his state of ignorance, and who is the one that is being arrogant?

[Love Life]

Gloob- I have fired large amounts of traditionally lubed, tumble lubed, HI-TEK coated, and PC coated boolits.

The traditionally lubed ones smoke more than the coated ones using the exact same powder charges in the exact same guns. I've had these guns for awhile and have fired many rds of each type of lube or coating. That's all there is to it for me.

However, the smoke really isn't THAT big a deal unless I am shooting inside. You want to see smoke? Lyman 358429 over 5 gr unique lubed with either speed green or Lotak hard. Now that's smoky, but oh so accurate that zero...um...foxtrots are given.

A year or two ago I did a 200 rd back to back comparison between HI-TEK coated boolits and boolits lubed with speed green. 400 rds total on the same day. The boolit was the NOE H&G 34 copy. I used the same powder charge, same gun, same mags, etc.

Accuracy was a wash.

Fouling of the pistol was pretty night and day. With coated boolits, fouling was as you would get from jacketed.

With the lubed boolits, it was quite gross. Heavy residue fouling with greasy feel. Didn't matter though because in the pistol functioning and performance were near identical.


Why there HAS to be only one method is really beyond me. I use what I need when needed. Why, just now I am loading a batch of 230 gr RN lubed with BLL and will be headed to the range to shoot them off today. Why? Because it pleases me.


To anybody reading. Give them all a try.

[Maximumbob54]

This thread needed that post. If that liquid wax was available local then I too would try BLL.

[Love Life]

Can your local hardware store order you some of the liquid wax? I really like the BLL.

Here are some more thoughts on this subject:

I have owned and lubed bullets with a Magma Star, Lyman 4500, 450, and 45.

I have used LLA and LEE push throughs. Regardless of which way I wax lubed, unless I used a generous bell of the case mouth, I ended up with lube build up in my reloading dies. Yes the lubesizers were adjusted correctly with no lube on the shoulders, noses, or bases (Cept'n the LLA because it is a tumble lube). I merrily just hit the seating die with a bundle of q-tips soaked in acetone every hunnit' rds or so and really had no issues.


I have used HI-TEK 3 part liquid, HI-TEK powder, HF Powder coat, and Smokes Powder coat.

Using the coated boolits, I have never had to clean a seating stem. Just the way it is.

Both accomplish the task of getting the boolits down the barrel lead free and with acceptable accuracy. I say acceptable accuracy because I don't shoot my targets at 7 yds. I shoot 20-50 yds and the accuracy has been acceptable in the sense that 2-3 inches is not unusual at 25 yds shooting the Glock...or revolver...or 1911...or cz.

Out to 50 yds I can't say much definitive, but then again I'm still busting my hump at the 50 yd line to be good.

Some have come and poo pooed the coatings, but they have not done in depth (not just a magful at 7yds) testing of the coatings. Or mebbe they did and I missed it, but I'm on this forum non stop and tend to read most things posted.

I'll gladly send a large batch of 400 boolits to a member with a ransom rest and a bullseye gun of known accuracy to test. 100 PC'd, 100 HI-TEK, 100 Lube groove filled, 100 tumble lube with BLL. I'll cover their component cost as well, and mebbe we can put this to bed, have real data for members to make their decisions on, and all have a merry time while at it.

[gloob]

using the exact same powder charges in the exact same guns

I agree. I don't know why you have to add this. I didn't say all M&M's are red.

In fact, most M&M's are green, and the average reloader would have no reason to have ever see a red M&M, because they haven't applied the right information to their loading process. They haven't looked at and addressed all of the basic parameters. And it's through no fault of their own; it's because they were led astray. This is why I expect most reloaders have not experienced what I have.

Have any of you, by chance, every shot cast bullets out of a rifle? If you have, I wonder if you noticed any smoke?

Why there HAS to be only one method is really beyond me.

Who said there has to be one? I certainly didn't!

I'm going to quote myself, here.

there's a common theme where anyone tells me that they have loaded for 83 years and simply can't get the results I speak of with cast bullets [out of closed breech firearms]. I ask about their expander, and they make qualified excuses.

You'll notice I didn't mention slugging a bore, messing with alloy, or trying a different lube or a different powder. If you want to put me to rest, just add the fact that you are using the proper sized expander. Share your specification on this part of your expander die. That would settle it. You could stick a fork in me.

Even if you PC, the right expander can increase your accuracy and decrease any fouling.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=779539

Here's a quote from a PM I received yesterday from someone who didn't automatically assume I'm trolling for a fight.

Last night I made up some dummy rounds and then pulled the boolits. Sure as hell, there's swaging going on. Not sure if that's mostly a consequence of a very soft alloy, but clearly there's a reduction in the lower driving band.

And here's a thread I started on the topic that better explains my own experiences that led me to this point. It doesn't specifically address smoke, but rest assured my locked breech handgun and rifles don't smoke indoors, at night, or any other place or time:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=778560

[mongoose33]

I ordered the expander for 9mm as Gloob suggested; probably won't show up in time for me to do anything with it until after next weekend, what with the holiday and I'll be out of commission all next weekend.

But I will explore this and see what develops from it.

[Love Life]

Gloob- Thank you for the info that has been covered ad nauseam on this forum since long before I got here.

I broke a cardinal rule of mine, and was reminded of why I don't break it.