Another reason to powder coat

[Digital Dan]

I'm not famous for PC. Since the concept was invented I've veered off on other tangents.

I shoot patched lead at long range.
I shoot snot covered bullets too, at a variety of ranges.

Got no problems, don't need the exercise and gymnastics of PC bullets or mannerisms.

50 yards if anyone cares, very early in the load development cycle with an old Marlin lever gun.

[A pause for the COZ]

PC pros and cons

pros:
1. They look freakin awesome.
2. They store well.
3. They are protected against the elements.
4. They are easy to load
5. Greatly reduces your exposure to lead in the course of shooting.
6. Use the right color and you can fly under the radar at ranges that don't like cast.
7. Low smoke.
8. Increased diameter on undersized bullets.
9. Use in suppressors is an option with PC.
10. Did I mention they look cool?

cons:
1. Very hard to get anywhere close to the plug and play accuracy of traditional grease lubed bullets.
2. It's time consuming and tedious.
3. It's messy. Powder gets everywhere.
4. Bullets that were the correct size are now oversize, and a pretty harsh sizing operation is required.
5. Hardness may be compromised by the baking operation.
6. Some of us like the look of traditional cast lead.
7. HV shooting is not working out very well.
8. It's pretty much impossible to coat them evenly in a balanced fashion and have them come out looking cool.
9. You find the fact that pulling the bullets and reclaiming the powder is an advantage over actually shooting them. (zing to the OP, all in good fun!)
10. Did I mention that accuracy is horribly lackluster in comparison with a good greased cast bullet?

Thats the way I see it.
Theres actually a lot better reason to PC than not to, untill it comes to actually putting groups on paper. Therefore I think PC is great in situations where you need lots of trigger time at close range and low speed and the pretty looking bullets are worth passing up the known performance of greased bullets.
Unfortuantely, I am a rifle shooter, and I admire the holes in the target much more than I do the ammo in the magazine, so it rarely makes sense for me.
I've had fun with PC, and occasionally I'll make a few just to wow the newbes, but that's about it.
When it's time to get down to business and shoot groups, the PC stays on the shelf.
Just my opinion, and more power to anyone who thinks differently.

I think everybody should try it at least once, but don't be too disapointed when you can't hit like you used to. It's a fun facet to the sport. I just don't put much stock in appearances.

Missed one!!! And is the #1 reason I powder coat my pistol bullets.
Powder coated bullets feed just as good as any jacketed bullet from bullet feed dies.
Any one who has ever tried to get standard lubed bullets to feed knows exactly what I mean. Load 5 rounds take the die apart to clean it. Load 5 more repeat.
Now when I get on a loading jag I can feed a 1000 no problem. Makes the whole effort worth while.

[MBTcustom]

Hi Tim,
Did you really mean to say item #10? (Did I mention that accuracy is horribly lackluster in comparison with a good greased cast bullet?)

If so, apparently you haven’t actually tested any powder coated bullets for accuracy or there is something wrong with your coating? Attached is a photo of a recent group fired from my Ransom Rest. This is just one example I have using HP-38 powder and I have a number of tests using alternate powders delivering consistent groups under 2”. The bullet in this test is a powder coated 230 grain round nose from a Saeco #357 mold. This is my standard bullet of choice as it feeds 100%. When I start testing powder coated semi wad cutter designs I expect the groups to improve. As you can see from the photo this is a 1.6”, 5 shot group at 25 yards”. A 2”, 45 ACP group at 25 yards is considered by most to be outstanding and a 1-1/2” group is target quality from a high dollar custom gun.

I do plan to do a PC vs Lube test in the future just for comparison, but for me with this kind of accuracy, I will never go back to the sticky, smoking mess that gums up your dies and will not feed in a bullet feeder.

Additionally, you should mention that a powder coated bullet leaves a clean barrel after every shot so accuracy does not diminish like a lubed bullet, which deposits small amounts of lead with each shot.

Did you mention powder coated bullets are the coolest looking bullets on the range? (LOL)
Attachment 139773

LOL!
OK, try that at 100 yards. Dad could cover a 6" steel ringer at 100 yards 7 out of 7 with a H&G 34 lubed with RCBS green.
Try that in a rifle at 2400FPS out to 200 yards.

Second, if you're getting leading build up with a standard cast lead in a 1911 you're doing it wrong.
Back before lead became hard to get, I was running 600 rounds per range session with my 1911. The only fowling I had to clean off was lube and powder residue. No leading at all, whatsoever. Use the right size bullet and it's not a problem.

That said, I did have a buddy across town who bought a RIA 1911 that leaded up when loaded with MY bullets. It was bad, and none of the usual tricks worked to fix it. Sent the pistol back to Arnell (Armscore's gunsmith) and got a new barrel for free that ran like a champ. Easy fix.
Other than that one instance with a Philippino pistol, I have always traced leading problems to undersized bullets being shot by people who ignored the instructions I gave them.
Now, it's very true that PC will allow you to keep doing it wrong and not get leading, but it's such a PITA, I would think it would be easier to just do it right in the first place.

Like I said, if you like shooting low velocity at close range, with bullets that look freakin awesome, and you don't mind dinking with all the spraying, shaking, peeling, baking, and sizing, then by all means GIT-ER-DONE!!!!!

[blikseme300]

You are not the only here that had success with conventional lube.

However, I will challenge you to lube/size bullets with less time than I have in actual bullet handling of PC. And, your barrels WILL have soot in them...I have shot a few conventionally lubed bullets...you, nor anyone else can make them shoot as clean as PC bullets.

Collator and feeder on my Star for pistol so challenge accepted. I know this is an uneven advantage that most don't have so I'll accept that you are able to PC very efficiently. Different folks, different strokes. It's the results that matter and as both methods work well choose whichever suits you.

Yes, soot may be present but this is not only because of the lube as some powders are dirty regardless. Soot and dirty hands don't concern me as what matters is that the accuracy and functioning of the pistol.

[Schrag4]

COZ, agree that everyone seems to forget about having to clean lube out of your dies. I can tolerate the mess of lube in most cases, but having to clean the dies more often (MUCH more often) was a deal-breaker for me.

I'd like to add that the PC is very slick and so sizing takes very little effort, in case nobody else has mentioned it. Not a huge advantage, but every little bit helps, right? I thought I read that the slickness has other advantages when it comes to internal ballistics, but I'll let someone who knows more chime in.

[Harter66]

A 45 Colts 92' Rosschester.
I don't recall how many rounds have been through it but several boxes of assorted boolits most recently greased 454424 s at 1300 fps with 20 gr of H110. 8 did run a few patches through it after a wet country hunt a couple of weeks ago but picked up no fouling. I would love to PC some for rifles but 8m getting where I mostly need to be w/o it so why buy more tools .


Attachment 139808

[popper]

I followed Gear's lube thread for a year or so, tried some stuff (some really weird stuff that did work) and changed to PC for rifle, HiTek for pistol. A big advantage for the coating crowd is NO first shot/cold barrel flyers - Gear's biggest challenge, 30F to 100F that I've TESTED (rifle). Beyond those temp ranges, I'm not out shooting. I HAVE pushed the 308W past 2400 @ 100, don't know how it does @ 200. Do whatever you want but don't make untested/lazy claims.
30F, 170 gr. GC HF red (not the best), prone with bipod, jeans & Sweatshirt, laying on a unlevel gravel parking apron, ~ 60 yds - 2450 chrony'd. Haven't shot prone since a Garand in boot camp. Ones marked 'C' were called flyers by me. Oh, hand & cheap small bag for elevation control.

Attachment 139810

[DR Owl Creek]

I believe that once you get the basics of proper bullet fit to your gun, alloy and powder selection, and proper type of lube figured out, there really shouldn't be a problem with leading or smoking/dirty cast bullet loads. I'm more concerned with accuracy, rather than how cheap or easy something might be. Also, "purty collars" doesn't cut it with me either.

I'd like to see serious testing for accuracy. This is where the coatings fans loose me. I'm not interested in what's called "combat" accuracy for a handgun, where you're satisfied with just being able to hit a 9" paper plate at 3, 5, 7, or even 10 yards. I'd like to see some serious handgun load testing done at least at a minimum of 25 yards, if not even out to 50 yards. I'd also like to see some serious rifle testing done at least at a minimum of 100 yards, if not even out to 200 yards, or more. I'd like to see pictures of all the targets too, not just somebody's word for what they've supposedly done.

There have been a few threads in the coatings section of the forum where people have posted some targets, but they invariably turn out to be shot at really close ranges, and then they don't even count the fliers in the overall groups sizes. Keep in mind that the term "minute of angle" (MOA) is an angular unit of measurement of 1/60 of a degree, which works out to be about 1.047" at 100 yards. A 1" overall group size at 50 yards isn't 1 MOA. It's actually just about 2 MOA. A 1" overall group size at 25 yards is actually closer to about 4 MOA.

Another problem of close range testing is that more often than not, those group sizes increase exponentially as the distance is increased. That 1" group shot at 50 yards will probably be much larger than 2" at 100 yards. A 1" group shot at 25 yards might not even hit the target backer at 100 yards or more.

This is the type of testing that I haven't seen done with the coatings so far. If you want to impress me, show me some real results.

Dave

[Love Life]

1) Pick one and roll with it. I rarely defend or justify what I do or like to others.
2) People who get leading in the 45 acp, 9mm, 40 S&W, 10mm, 38 special, need to go back to reading to figure out why. While PC can be used as a Band-Aid, it is much better to use it as another option or tool in the box. Guns should be leading free before swapping to PC...

For those who want to see serious testing for accuracy with PC...Buy some PC, use it, and test it for yourself. Stop relying on others to answer a question for you.

[Maximumbob54]

I did PC to stop leading. IN DIFFERENT GUNS!!! I got tired of a bin marked .357" and .359" and don't shoot the .357" bullets by accident in the gun that demands .359" or it's lead sewer pipe. With PC I can size them all at .358" and everything shoots them. The best part is when I shoot my Rossi R92 I never bothered to slug the bore and guess what it shoots the .358" bullets just fine.

[dragon813gt]

PC pros and cons

pros:
1. They look freakin awesome.

Am I the only one that doesn't think this is the case? Seeing a bunch of adults get excited because their bullets look like a little kid painted them strikes me as odd. I equate it to the guys the paint their cars some fashionable at the moment color. Black, or in the case of bullets a shiny silver, is a classic look and is never out of style. This is all IMO but I think PC kills how a loaded round looks.

As others have said, if you're getting leading you're doing something wrong. The only reason I would ever consider PC is to reduce smoke. This is the only advantage I see over other forms of lube. I'm glad people are trying new things but I've hopped aboard one to many band wagons in my life. No need to hop on yet another one.

[Love Life]

If people will long term loan me their match pistols, I will gladly do all the testing they want.

[mongoose33]

Am I the only one that doesn't think this is the case? Seeing a bunch of adults get excited because their bullets look like a little kid painted them strikes me as odd. I equate it to the guys the paint their cars some fashionable at the moment color. Black, or in the case of bullets a shiny silver, is a classic look and is never out of style. This is all IMO but I think PC kills how a loaded round looks.

As others have said, if you're getting leading you're doing something wrong. The only reason I would ever consider PC is to reduce smoke. This is the only advantage I see over other forms of lube. I'm glad people are trying new things but I've hopped aboard one to many band wagons in my life. No need to hop on yet another one.

You are of course correct. With the exception of a revolver, once loaded in the gun you can't see 'em anyway.

I think some of it is that it's SO outside what one might expect it looks almost like clown feet--but still works. It also allows those who want to be the center of attention. It also makes quite apparent to those who do not handload that there are mountains they have not climbed, vistas upon which they have not gazed, rivers they haven't dreamed of crossing. But I digress.

I'm a coach for a Scholastic Shooting Sports pistol team. Our school colors are blue and orange, and guess what colors I'm PC'ing some of my boolits?

We'd be the only team with color-coordinated ammo--except the students cannot shoot my reloads. But I can pull out a clear tupperware container of those cartridges and they look cool.

PS: Typically I never even wash my cars, much less worry about what color they are painted.

[gloob]

Bottom line is there are those that will absolutely NOT admit PC is any good. Fine. Load the way you have for the past decades.

No one has ever said that in the history of gun forums, but it's what some folks like to hear.

I know, for me, PC allows me to shoot a ton more boolits with hardly any cleaning of barrels after hundreds of rounds.

Which is great for you. Some folks shoot thousands of cast rounds without cleaning their barrels and without smoke and without playing easy-bake with their bulllets. (At least one guy I know very, very well).

I know how to powder coat. Because I've bought the stuff, and I've done it. I know powder coated bullets can shoot clean.

It's obvious that some of the folks doing powder coat on pistol bullets DON'T know how to shoot naked boolits without fouling. Or else they wouldn't be doing the extra work of powder coating all their bullets and being giddy with excitement over results that are the same as they've ever had. Well, maybe you have something about "turning heads at the range" and the smoke (out of revolvers).

So next time you get the feeling that someone is trying to rain on your parade, maybe you can be more open-minded. When it comes to PC, those people are just trying to open your eyes to something to which you are obviously unaware. There are legitimate applications for powder coat. Many. But in some cases, powder coating is putting bandaids on every one of your bullets rather than fixing the actual problem, just once, and for good. And you might even be leaving some accuracy on the table by taking this "short" cut.

I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I know that powder coat is a miracle to you. I have followed the "movement." I have done it, and I believe it. I believe everything you said, and I don't think any of it is exaggerated. It just doesn't excite me... because I know something you don't. And if you knew what I knew, you wouldn't be angry at me for trying to share it.

For anyone excited about powder coat, it would seem logical that they might be interested in achieving the same, or even better, results in 90% of their firearms without the hassle. So forgive the odd guy out who has adds the occasional objective comment that might seem like it's taking air out of the powder coat party balloons.

Let's say I'm excited. I'm jumping around, hooting and hollering about a new invention. Hundreds of other folks have joined in, and it's a huge crazy party. You come over to see what's the hoopla, and tada. It's sliced bread. If we were excited enough, you might even listen to how we make each slice, manually, with a knife. Heck, we might be so damn happy, you try it for yourself. Still curious, you finally ask, "Well, what's the point?" Well, now you know how I feel about powder coat.

[Love Life]

PC m-m-m-mmm-m-make me happy

[mongoose33]

Some folks shoot thousands of cast rounds without cleaning their barrels and without smoke and without playing easy-bake with their bulllets. (At least one guy I know very, very well).

Smoke is the reason I turned to powdercoating. I just, in some circumstances, get a lot of smoke and so I turned to PC'ing as a way to eliminate lube smoke.

I've tried all sorts of things to reduce or eliminate the smoke. Changed alloy. Changed boolit sized diameter. Changed lube. Changed powder. No combination has been effective at even reducing the smoke to a tolerable level. I was *not* having problems with leading, just with smoke.

So, when you say you know some folks who shoot thousands of cast rounds w/o cleaning their barrels and without smoke, well, inquiring minds (at least this one) want to know: how are they doing it?

How? I'm outta ideas.

[twc1964]

Well, im with the pc crowd. Mainly, i like the fact thst i can cast, pc, size and pack em in large plastic containers for future use and not worry about them sticking together or gumming my dies. I did not have leading in my pistols before pc but did have more smoke than i wanted at indoor ranges. To each their own, but i find pc'ing a bunch of boolits on a saturday afternoon with a cold bottle of suds very relaxing. On a plus note...my 17yo daughter likes the colors and thst she got to pick what color she wanted on the boolits she shoots. Thst alone was worth it for me.

[hanleyfan]

The one step I always hated was bullet lubing, so when I tried powder coating and got the results I needed I am quite happy with it. In fact I enjoy powder coating and I no longer have put up with all that grease and mess I once did. In fact I cast so I can powder coat because I keep running out of boolits. I sold all my grease lubes and will never go back. Some like it some don't so do what you like and lets all be happy.

[Harter66]

What is an exceptible level of smoke ? I've never fired a round inside. So what I think of as negligible smoke might strike the next guy as being akin to a 5lb cannon fired in a VW Beetle cab . A guy sent me some PC boolits to try out but as yet I haven't loaded them . They look like m&ms in the bag . I'm sure they will look great in the moon clips. If someone were to define some test parameters boolits to use for an exact comparison I will be happy to do a 100 round shoot of high velocity rifle as I put in my trigger time for deer season if I should have the good fortune of drawing a tag. I have a 222,308 and 264 WM. Those should provide sufficient velocity and calibre range unless someone has a 350 RM and 458 WM or Lott . So all I need is a PM with correct PN for Harbor Freight and witnesses willing to travel, a toaster oven would help too.

[bangerjim]

I, as many, have an open mind. I have done grease and Alox and PC. PC is just what I like and use 100%.

There are those that enjoy sticking to (pun intended) the grease lubed style of shooting. Great. Glad they enjoy it.

I, and many thousands of others, have switched from grease to PC and are having great success for what we expect from our guns. Everyone's expectations are different. I don't shoot 200 yards and kill living things. I have fun and derive pleasure from casting, coating, loading, and shooting at 10-75 yards. With the accuracy that is mine.

Some new people are starting out with PC due to the extremely high investment for a Lubramatic. I don't blame them. If they get the results that satisfies their needs, great.

Do what you find performs best for your needs.