I feel...soiled.

[NavyVet1959]

That is ingenious, but a given environment supports a given amount of biomass, mega or bite-sized, and deserts support vultures. They know how to exploit undrafts, and unlike the albatross, which is not a very big eater, they fly only part of the 24 hours.

Deserts don't support much in the way of large animals. With a large scavenger, it needs large amounts of carrion to survive. If that carrion is spread across a very large area (as would occur when it has to resort to eating smaller dead animals), it is expending a lot more energy in finding the next meal. As such, the energy requirements of the scavenger go up and it needs to find even more carrion to survive. As such, even if the amount of available dead biomass was the same, the amount of energy that the condor has to expend has increased and thus the available dead biomass can support fewer condors.

Adapt or die... It's how things work in nature. If you specialize too much, you stand a chance of extinction when things change.

[BrentD]

I'll never miss the condor...

Of course, it ain't all about you.

Has anyone considered how many have survived by eating gut piles and unrecovered game? As pointed out earlier a proper bullet (or boolit) will not be in the animal if it does it's job correctly.

In the case of unrecovered game, it's pretty much a certainty that the bullet did not do its job correctly

[BrentD]

They evolved in the age of "megafauna". They are a meat eater (scavenger) and require a lot of (dead) meat to survive. With the megafauna removed, their days were numbered. Dead cattle serve as a substitute these days and I suspect any of the dead large sea mammal in the coastal areas that might wash ashore. Sometimes, you just reach an evolutionary dead end and you need to recognize it.

If you have reached an evolutionary dead end, I'm sorry for ya.

But whether the condor has or has not, is an open question (not easily answered except by armchair internet experts

[bhn22]

Okay, here's my take on the left, and their positions on hunting and fishing. The left is all about people, they want everybody to buy into their ideology and accept their "contributions" to public welfare, but to do achieve these goals, many will need to sacrifice their independence to the government. There are fewer of the strong, than there are of the weak nowdays. "Divide and conquer" has been extremely effective the last few decades, and this country is no longer able to pull together for the common good, because the common good no longer exists. Everybody is splintered, and only the loudest voices are heard, the rest are shouted down and attacked publicly for being against the common good. If we can realign many of the "special interest" groups, we may stand a chance. Otherwise....

[BrentD]

bhn22, you speak of "the left" as if they are of one mind and one opinion. They are not.

We stand a chance be simply being inclusive and rational. A lefty that likes to hunt and shoot is the type of lefty that will ensure that these traditions continue.

That statement of yours, "pull together for the common good" is as true as it ever was. And it also means that "my way or the highway" is not the means to an end. Something that many hunters and gunners seem to have forgotten. It is a big country with a LOT of people. An inconceivably HUGE number of people. Expecting that one small group, like hunters, should get their way simply because they say so is not going to be successful.

[NavyVet1959]

Of course, it ain't all about you.

[bhn22]

The common good is dead, control is the new king. Nobody, and I do mean nobody but me has my best interests at heart.

[Blackwater]

Well, as usual, nobody's listening, and therefore, nobody's thinking or learning anything. I think bhn has it nailed. We truly ARE fragmented, and a fragmented group or people WILL, by their simple high-handedness and stuborness, open themselves to being dominated by those who DO unite. The muslims must think Allah is having a field day!

[BrentD]

"Common good " is NOT about you. Never was. This is America after all. Sees odd to me that so many equate their own personal issues as being the standard by which an entire society should abide.

[bhn22]

Like I said before, common good is dead. Now we aspire to subjugate the industrious to those whose only concept of "freedom" and "rights", doesn't extend beyond a government handout.

We have been betrayed and destroyed by our own charitable souls. Now, can we get back to talking about the condors?

[BrentD]

You can say anything you want, but "common good" hasn't gone away.

Anyone can say anything, but that doesn't make it a fact.

[Blackwater]

Like I said, nobody's listening and therefore, nobody's learning. There's no necessity in any of us getting "our way" in the matter, unless it's for posterity, yet we keep on hammering the same old nails without ever looking up to see if there's a better or more appropriate or wiser or more all-encompasing way. No listening, no learning. That's not a position on the issue, it's just a principle of human action and interaction. Nothing more. And it seemed to apply here. Principles DO count for something, ya' know, and always does when tempers take over and our more rational selves back off or disappear. If we ALL observed that more closely, we'd come a lot closer to at least UNDERSTANDING the other's side, and thereby at least agree to disagree more gracefully and we'd take away from the fray a bit more wisdom. Again, not an argument for or against either side, but a plea for more decorum. We ALL get a bit beyond seemliness at times.

[Texantothecore]

One of the questions I have had for a good number of years is:

Where are all the lead poisoned buzzards. They seem to have been forgotten, which is a shame as they feed on similar carrion.

But there doesn't seem to be much of a problem. Why?

[dtknowles]

One of the questions I have had for a good number of years is:

Where are all the lead poisoned buzzards. They seem to have been forgotten, which is a shame as they feed on similar carrion.

But there doesn't seem to be much of a problem. Why?

I would not know about California but around here a passel of dead turkey vultures or buzzards would hardly draw notice. It seems they mostly feed on road kill here and they mostly seem to get road killed themselves. Been seeing a lot of road killed gators and coons, the buzzards are pretty busy.

Tim

[Three44s]

How does a lead boolit that passed thru and thru going to poison a celebrated Cali buzzard?

How does a Cali buzzard feed on dead that ain't?

What I am alluding to is this:

Maybe the celebrated Cali buzzard is short on kills?

If it is so hungry after feeding on kills that ain't there anymore ....... that it has to scour the country side to find a boolit in the open ............

............. it just needs more honest to goodness kills ......... it needs more hunters to make more gut piles so it does not have to scour the earth for a blood stained boolit that flew right on through it's target and lodged itself in mother earth?

Now the lead bird shot ........... that does not pass right through at the rate that boolits do ........

.............. There is an arguement that's got some validity.

Three 44s

[NavyVet1959]

I think the real problem is those little electric golf carts that the Cali folks drive these days are just not big enough to give the Condors the amount of road kill that they need to survive. We have plenty of road kill here in Texas and our buzzards have no problem whatsoever getting enough food to eat. The Cali folks need to trade in their Prius and such cars for Chevy Suburbans, Ford Excursions, and such and get out there and make some more road kill!

[303Guy]

Lead boolits are not the problem, it's them durned jaxketeds that to the fowl deeds. Ever notice what happens when a soft nose bullet hits an animal? It expands and sheds lead fragments in the process. So much so that people actually get high lead from eating shot venison. The trick is not to eat up to the bullet hole. A study was done in a country where there are no condors and no Californians. The outcome of the findings were along the lines of advising hunters to cut away any meat that could potentially be contaminated IIRC. My point is, lead bullets can contaminate shot animals.

Using radiography, researchers detected lead in tissue samples,” as much as 18 inches away from the exit wound, and noted that most of the particles were too small to see or feel. However, “the probability of having a tissue sample test positive for lead at 10 inches was quite low (~7%).” The study also found that rinsing the wound channel reduced lead fragments locally but seemed to increase lead contamination in other areas of the carcass. Surprisingly, trimming 2 inches of material around the wound channel eliminated only 30 percent of lead contamination.

Cast boolits were not tested in this study as far as I can make out.

[BrentD]

One of the questions I have had for a good number of years is:

Where are all the lead poisoned buzzards. They seem to have been forgotten, which is a shame as they feed on similar carrion.

But there doesn't seem to be much of a problem. Why?

Journal of Wildlife Diseases 39(1):96-104. 2003

EXPERIMENTAL LEAD POISONING IN TURKEY VULTURES (CATHARTES AURA)



James W. Carpenter^1,2, Oliver H. Pattee^1,7, Steven H. Fritts^1,3, Barnett A. Rattner¹, Stanley N. Wiemeyer^1,4, J. Andrew Royle^1,5, and Milton R. Smith^6
1 USGS Patuxent Wildlife Research Center, 11510 American Holly Drive, Laurel, Maryland 20708-4019, USA
² Department of Clinical Sciences, College of Veterinary Medicine, Kansas State University, Manhattan, Kansas 66506, USA
³ US Fish and Wildlife Service, Migratory Birds and State Programs, P.O. Box 25486, Denver, Colorado 80225, USA
⁴ US Fish and Wildlife Service, Nevada Fish and Wildlife Office, 1340 Financial Boulevard, Suite 234, Reno, Nevada 89502, USA
⁵ US Fish and Wildlife Service, Migratory Bird Management, 11510 American Holly Drive, Laurel, Maryland 20708-4019, USA
⁶ USGS National Wildlife Health Research Center, 6006 Schroeder Road, Madison, Wisconsin 53711, USA



Lead-induced mortality appears to have been a major factor in the decline of the California condor (Gymnogyps californianus). We orally dosed turkey vultures (Cathartes aura) with BB-sized lead shot from January 1988 through July 1988 to determine physiologic response (delta-aminolevulinic acid dehydratase inhibition, erythrocyte protoporphyrin levels, anemia), diagnostic tissue lead concentrations (blood, liver, and kidney), and comparative sensitivity of this species. Two turkey vultures died and two became so intoxicated they were euthanized. Overall, responses of measured parameters were comparable to other species exposed to lead although there was considerable individual variation. Survival time (143–211 days), even with the large numbers of shot and constant redosing, was much longer than reported for other species of birds, suggesting considerable tolerance by turkey vultures to the deleterious effects of lead ingestion. Based on these observations, turkey vultures appear to be poor models for assessing the risk of lead poisoning to California condors or predicting their physiologic response.

[BrentD]

From PLOS1

Impact of the California Lead Ammunition Ban on Reducing Lead Exposure in Golden Eagles and Turkey Vultures

• Terra R. Kelly ,
• Peter H. Bloom,
• Steve G. Torres,
• Yvette Z. Hernandez,
• Robert H. Poppenga,
• Walter M. Boyce,
• Christine K. Johnson

• Published: April 6, 2011
• DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0017656

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Abstract

Predatory and scavenging birds may be exposed to high levels of lead when they ingest shot or bullet fragments embedded in the tissues of animals injured or killed with lead ammunition. Lead poisoning was a contributing factor in the decline of the endangered California condor population in the 1980s, and remains one of the primary factors threatening species recovery. In response to this threat, a ban on the use of lead ammunition for most hunting activities in the range of the condor in California was implemented in 2008. Monitoring of lead exposure in predatory and scavenging birds is essential for assessing the effectiveness of the lead ammunition ban in reducing lead exposure in these species. In this study, we assessed the effectiveness of the regulation in decreasing blood lead concentration in two avian sentinels, golden eagles and turkey vultures, within the condor range in California. We compared blood lead concentration in golden eagles and turkey vultures prior to the lead ammunition ban and one year following implementation of the ban. Lead exposure in both golden eagles and turkey vultures declined significantly post-ban. Our findings provide evidence that hunter compliance with lead ammunition regulations was sufficient to reduce lead exposure in predatory and scavenging birds at our study sites.

[NavyVet1959]

They evolved in the era of megafauna and need large amounts of meat to survive compared to turkey vultures. Unfortunately for them, people seem to find large rotting carcasses laying around somewhat distasteful and want them removed.

http://www.chron.com/bayarea/article...re-6273109.php

An excavator jabbed its claw into a Pacifica beach Tuesday morning, carving out the first of two holes in the sand that will become burial sites for a pair of whales that washed ashore and then became too stinky for neighbors’ liking.

The big dig at Sharp Park State Beach began at 8 a.m., could continue for a couple of days. and will cost the San Francisco Recreation and Park Department $40,000 because it maintains the property, said officials overseeing the unusual “quality of life” operation.

They said the whales will be dragged into the holes, starting with the northernmost — and smelliest — of the two, a 42-foot female humpback. As the job kicked off, one onlooker watched the excavator from afar, as workers had blocked off the area with yellow caution tape.

The humpback whale washed up May 5 with injuries consistent with blunt force trauma, and might have been hit by a ship, said researchers after performing a necropsy on the beach. They found four broken vertebrae, surrounding hemorrhaging and a broken rib.

A 48-foot sperm whale washed up April 14 about a quarter-mile south of the humpback. Scientists could not pin down a cause of death in the earlier case, but ruled out the possibility that the sperm whale had been struck by a ship.

The two whales have inspired gawkers and marine biologists to visit the beach, but who would take care of the corpses was a bit of a debate. The city initially decided to let the whales decompose where they lay, the method endorsed by marine biologists, but some said the smell was just too much.