One report stated that lead was being ingested from lead paint in nesting area. It ain't from eating lead bullets from game killed and not picked up . if that was the case, there would be NO carrion birds in the country. Narrative must fit the cause. Liberal agenda. And just like the snail darter, who the heck cares? Sorry but a few hundred birds don't matter.
Exactly.....and unfortunately they vote different in NOVA too..Originally Posted by N4AUD
But plenty of places to hunt and shoot. Oh and taxes, they are horrible
Don't bring any science or logic to this discussion, nobody on this site wants to hear it. Much easier to wring your hands and pronounce it a "liberal agenda". I've been down this road before with waterfowl and lead shot and learned my lesson. Best to just keep casting boolits and smile.Actual numbers are 425 with slightly less than 1/2 in a captive breeding program. The species was down to 22 wild birds at one point when it was decided to bring them all into a captive breeding program. The 209 in the wild are from that breeding program.
The following is not going to be popular but.... what the heck I'm not trying to get a date with any of you
http://www.peregrinefund.org/docs/pd...ia-condors.pdf is a chunk of decently done and documented research into what kills California Condors. Lead, trash, and power lines, along with loss of habitat all play a part. With clear scientific evidence supporting that lead bullets compose a major threat. Percentages of deaths from lead poisoning are admittedly off since birds that die in more remote locations are not found but of the dead ones found lead toxicity is present or a direct cause of death in many. Also some are treated for lead poisoning and don't die.
Not liking to buy expensive and probably not as effective non-lead ammo is clearly ones right but to state there is no basis for doing so requires more than claiming a liberal agenda and bringing forward incorrect facts.
Simple causative chain, not everything that is shot is recovered, animals are gutted in the field with bullets or bullet fragments in them, condors have stomach acid that is especially good at dissolving lead. The lead found in condors matches the spectrum of lead from bullets. We all know the alloys used for that lead, when a mass spectrometer finds that mix in the blood of condors it gets somewhat hard to support the idea that lead ammunition is not part of the problem. A .22 bullet swallowed and in the gullet of a bird dying of lead poisoning is also fairly indicative. Findings that since lead ammo was banned from hunting the lead blood levels of all carrion birds have fallen also seems like it might be a correlation. Finding that captive birds away from hunting don't have elevated lead and those out where hunting exists did might also support a causative relationship between bullets a condor lead poisoning.
Trash is a big problem for the nestlings, why the parents bring back or regurgitate trash items is unknown. But those trash items such as a zinc lock washer or bottle caps will kill the baby birds. Mortality rate is around 1/3 since the start of the whole program (started in the 80's) but has been steadily falling as things are learned and adjustments are made. Having fallen fairly low currently it might just be getting to the point of sustainability.
Maybe folks don't care if Condors live or die out. Maybe the condor can not be brought back to a self sustaining wild population or maybe it can. What does not seem supportable is the idea that it is just some liberal plot or garbage science bent on taking away "our" bullets. Or inevitable either, getting from 22 to 425 indicates it might be possible IF the mortality rate can be reduced for the ones in the wild. Hunting without lead seems likely to help. If it does nothing more than give support to the efforts of more liberal folks it can't hurt from a public relations standpoint. As a group hunters have a reputation as generally being good stewards of the wilderness and concerned conservationists. Mostly deserved and earned. No point in chucking that away over having to hunt without lead. Or if one is going to then do it with solid science not PR talking points. Hard to say that birds that are found to be eating lead in carrion are not being harmed while we all wash our hands and wear gloves when handling it.
For the many people (and voters) between the far left and hunters those Giant California Condors are "cool" so being in the group that does not care if they all die and being unwilling to put up with some regulations in an attempt to save them is going to NOT look good to all those people. Might be good to have them think of you as reasonable so when you really need them to listen to prevent much worse laws they might not have already written you off. Who knows you might want them to listen when you point out the FBI homicide statistics show almost no homicides are committed with any rifle, let alone so called "assault" rifles.
"Is all this REALLY necessary?"
Except that Condors have a stomach acid that is really good at dissolving metals, much better than other carrion birds. Would love to see a link to the report on lead paint in nesting area. I'll read it if you post it. You might want to read the link I posted, pretty compelling "Narrative" fitting the cause.
Your opinion that a few hundred birds don't matter is certainly yours to hold. Not one I agree with but you are entitled to it. Not one that the general public tends to hold either. That was sort of my point. It takes good solid evidence and credibility to sway opinions. If people think you just don't care you lose the credibility to get the solid evidence you present examined.
Condors, lead free bullets, and California are all about as popular around here as Budweiser and bean farts in a space suit. But as far as I can tell the scientific evidence supports the idea that lead bullets are the primary cause of lead poisoning condor deaths. The lead wheel weight thing I generally don't get and have yet to find any science to support banning them other than a general claim that they are "bad in the waste stream". I could see how they might concentrate from storm drains, but as others have pointed out there are some naturally occurring sources of lead and so far have not found any empirical evidence of WW's causing problem or banning them solving said problem.
So jokes about Condors sucking up WW's like an Electrolux seem to me to be appropriate in the context of WW ban.
Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.
Kind of hard to claim to love America while one is hating half the Americans that disagree with you. One nation indivisible requires work.
Feedback page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...light=RogerDat
So we can't hunt with lead bullets in Condor regions in California? I was wondering what Condor tastes like.
Maybe a cross between Dodo and Passenger Pigeon?
I heard Barney was the reason dinosaurs went extinct. They said "we're related to you?, excuse me while I go and kill myself"
The next step is going to be a ban on the solid copper bullets. Copper is more toxic to mammals than lead. Animals go extinct for a reason. Unfortunately human expansion into an animal's natural habitat is going to play a large role in it. Let nature take it's course.
Some years back there was a rather vigorous discussion of the condor studies and the findings in the political forum. Those wanting to gripe now based on simple dislike should search it out for a good bit more information as to what the matter was about and how things pertaining were related. Some of the comments posted here now just were not very good. Good gripes have substance.
BvT
Every lawbreaker we allow into our nation, or tolerate in our citizen population leads to the further escalation of law breaking of all kinds and acceptance of evil.
Since almost all aspects of our cultural existence are LIBERAL in most states, this means that the nation is on a trajectory to dissolution by the burden of toleration and acceptance of LAWBREAKING as a norm, a trajectory back to the dark ages of history.
BvT
The condors fed on the large mammals that have long been extinct. They manage to survive mainly because of the non-native species that we have introduced into the California ecosystem (i.e. cattle and such). Like the panda, they are an evolutionary dead end. All we can do is slow the inevitable while inconveniencing ourselves in the process.
RogerDat well written, I'm with you 100%. Some critters have very aggressive digestive juices.
It not like hunters don't have another option. But what about the coins and trash they eat?
I guess we do what we can.
Did ya ever see the xrays of Kennedy's brain? Tiny lead fragmentas all over, like a 222 Rem, NOT a hard ball Carcano.
Interesting discussion. We go to extreme lengths to save maybe 200 birds while federal funds go to kill a million children before or during their birth. Very interesting indeed! Our morals, ethics and philosophies seem to be eating their own selves!
What do you mean by "let nature take it's course"? Is it natural for humans to continue to expand our range or is it natural for humans to discuss possible constraints to the expansion of our range and maybe even vacate land previously occupied to leave it in a state less affected by humans.
You said "Unfortunately human expansion into an animal's natural habitat is going to play a large role in it." that implies you think human expansion is negative so why not support a stop to this expansion and reverse that process. Leave more land unoccupied by humans. It is a choice not and inevitability. A long time ago one of my heros, Teddy Roosevelt established the National Parks to preserve some areas, a wise decision that should continue to be expanded but I like nature and wildlife better than I like most people.
Tim
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
The most likely cause of human extinction will be our self destruction by over population or cataclysmic political unrest as a result of conflict for resources. A few million abortions a year is no threat to our continued existence. Saving a few hundred rare birds is not a big deal either. How many Ruger 10-22's would you sacrifice to save one original Henry Rifle?
Tim
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
Actual numbers are 425 with slightly less than 1/2 in a captive breeding program. The species was down to 22 wild birds at one point when it was decided to bring them all into a captive breeding program. The 209 in the wild are from that breeding program.
The following is not going to be popular but.... what the heck I'm not trying to get a date with any of you
Yes, the evidence you present is pretty compelling, and it was compelling before you presented it. There is no question that the decline in numbers of the condor is due to various forms of human pressure, and that lead from bullets and shot is a major factor. Besides the rarity of shot exiting from the body, the snowflake effect of modern bullets, even jacketed ones with an open point or base, is well documented in forensic pathology. The same applies to lead shot and waterfowl.
A comparable cumulative effect has drastically affected avian predators in the past. Small birds don't build up enough pesticide residues in the body to do them serious harm. But falcons, which accumulate the pesticides from many small birds, did. It didn't kill them, but it made the eggshells thin enough to break in the nest. Humans, or at least non-cannibals, experience no such buildup with lead, and swallowed pellets normally pass through our system in the course of nature. But potentially fatal lead poisoning is a rare but well documented result of lead shot lodging in the appendix. Darwin suggested that the appendix is a vestige of a supplementary digestive organ which was needed in the days when we lived largely on leaves. That is pretty close to a gizzard, in which alien solids are meant to lodge.
Of course they do pick up stones to grind food down in the gizzard and it sounds like they may have something of the corvid instinct for unusual bright objects. The way to do that is by reducing littering, and especially littering near the nest site, water sources and the gutting of shot animals, since carrion birds don't land in many other places. The chances that they go looking for lead-mine tailings or the decreasing pollution from leaded gasoline are remote in the extreme. It's the firearms!
Who says there wasn't a drastic decline in the numbers of carrion birds on the Great Plains in the days of the near-extermination of the buffalo? With that sort of free food available, there would surely have been a migration from other areas, just like urban foxes and raccoons have followed the food. But where are replacement condors to migrate from?
One of the biggest political cards hunters and shooters have to play is concern for the environment. If they take an aggressively superficial view of environmental protection (and see above for some of the aggression), it is throwing sympathy away, just as sure as saying "The witches made my cow go dry."
And from reading the article the main source of lead was SHOTGUN PELLETS and not lead bullets. Plus I recognize 2 of the authors as rabid anti-lead bullet "researchers" who have been know to stretch the truth about the actual findings. One was here in MN pushing a ban because bald eagles were being found with lead. Lead picked up from hunting streams and lakes were lead shot was used for a very long time!
And a study was done on deer carcasses here to determine if the meat was safe to donate to food shelves. Anti-hunters were trying to block it claiming it would be lead contaminated and they found otherwise! In deer more often than not the bullet/shotgun slug passes through the animal or ends up under the skin on the side opposite where it was shot.
They need to study the gut piles left to see of lead is really present. Send samples to a laboratory that does not know what they are from or for. Otherwise the anti-lead bias creeps in and the studies are junk.
Actual numbers are 425 with slightly less than 1/2 in a captive breeding program. The species was down to 22 wild birds at one point when it was decided to bring them all into a captive breeding program. The 209 in the wild are from that breeding program.
The following is not going to be popular but.... what the heck I'm not trying to get a date with any of you
http://www.peregrinefund.org/docs/pd...ia-condors.pdf is a chunk of decently done and documented research into what kills California Condors. Lead, trash, and power lines, along with loss of habitat all play a part. With clear scientific evidence supporting that lead bullets compose a major threat. Percentages of deaths from lead poisoning are admittedly off since birds that die in more remote locations are not found but of the dead ones found lead toxicity is present or a direct cause of death in many. Also some are treated for lead poisoning and don't die.
Not liking to buy expensive and probably not as effective non-lead ammo is clearly ones right but to state there is no basis for doing so requires more than claiming a liberal agenda and bringing forward incorrect facts.
Simple causative chain, not everything that is shot is recovered, animals are gutted in the field with bullets or bullet fragments in them, condors have stomach acid that is especially good at dissolving lead. The lead found in condors matches the spectrum of lead from bullets. We all know the alloys used for that lead, when a mass spectrometer finds that mix in the blood of condors it gets somewhat hard to support the idea that lead ammunition is not part of the problem. A .22 bullet swallowed and in the gullet of a bird dying of lead poisoning is also fairly indicative. Findings that since lead ammo was banned from hunting the lead blood levels of all carrion birds have fallen also seems like it might be a correlation. Finding that captive birds away from hunting don't have elevated lead and those out where hunting exists did might also support a causative relationship between bullets a condor lead poisoning.
Trash is a big problem for the nestlings, why the parents bring back or regurgitate trash items is unknown. But those trash items such as a zinc lock washer or bottle caps will kill the baby birds. Mortality rate is around 1/3 since the start of the whole program (started in the 80's) but has been steadily falling as things are learned and adjustments are made. Having fallen fairly low currently it might just be getting to the point of sustainability.
Maybe folks don't care if Condors live or die out. Maybe the condor can not be brought back to a self sustaining wild population or maybe it can. What does not seem supportable is the idea that it is just some liberal plot or garbage science bent on taking away "our" bullets. Or inevitable either, getting from 22 to 425 indicates it might be possible IF the mortality rate can be reduced for the ones in the wild. Hunting without lead seems likely to help. If it does nothing more than give support to the efforts of more liberal folks it can't hurt from a public relations standpoint. As a group hunters have a reputation as generally being good stewards of the wilderness and concerned conservationists. Mostly deserved and earned. No point in chucking that away over having to hunt without lead. Or if one is going to then do it with solid science not PR talking points. Hard to say that birds that are found to be eating lead in carrion are not being harmed while we all wash our hands and wear gloves when handling it.
For the many people (and voters) between the far left and hunters those Giant California Condors are "cool" so being in the group that does not care if they all die and being unwilling to put up with some regulations in an attempt to save them is going to NOT look good to all those people. Might be good to have them think of you as reasonable so when you really need them to listen to prevent much worse laws they might not have already written you off. Who knows you might want them to listen when you point out the FBI homicide statistics show almost no homicides are committed with any rifle, let alone so called "assault" rifles.
RodgerDat. You have posted some very interesting stuff. The problem is I have to take it with a grain of salt. How many of the people who compiled this data would lose their grants if they did not find lead in condors. I once had to bid on a mercury clean up project. This project required discharge specs lower than any test I could find. I refused to bid. I expect that the condor studies required lead readings in the parts per billion range. After a career in chemical and environmental work I just don't trust anybodies ppb analysis. During my career the greatest whores I ever encountered were scientists seeking grants. I am not calling the information you gave false. I am just saying I have no idea if it is true or not. I often wonder what would happen to NASA's funding if they did not find evidence of global warming. I often regret being so sceptical and cynical but I can't help it.
Closest recorded range Chrony kill (3 feet with witnesses)
I will shoot what I want, where I want, and what ever I want.
I am an American. I will live and die by the constitution.
If a law is not constitutional, then is only a regulation, which I go care about.
No they wont put me in jail, thats for criminals
They will have to kill me, because after all I am the enemy
Lead has been outlawed here, we dont pay them no mind.
I have sworn on the altar of GOD eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man.Thomas Jefferson
" Any law that is NOT constitutional is not a law" James Madison
Well, only when they're looking.
Here in New Zealand, lead shot is banned near water ways. Not a general ban, only near water. The reason is that water fowl pick up lead shot and ingest it and it kills them. We respect the conversation laws (mostly or at least, most of us do).
I suspect that the California liberals do have an agenda which is basically anti-gun, anti-hunting among other things. You know, the Bambi syndrome. I do not know this as a fact, it's just a suspicion. However, I can see how lead containing bullets and boolits can leave dangerous lead residue in offal that condors would likely ingest. In my books, conservation takes priority over my desire to shoot hunt with lead boolits. I would hope that others share my view. I do however, draw the line at banning lead from shooting ranges where no condor is going to mine the berms for lead to chew on. I doubt any such ban exists - does it?
I like to think of hunters as nature loving people, hell bent on preserving the source of their passion. That would include wildlife in general and endangered wildlife in particular. Sadly though, there are people who really do not seem to care. I know of a few. These guys had a hunting resource that could have been a long term thing but they shot it out in a few months, leaving nothing for even the short term future. They had no regard for my ongoing shooting either. I was part of the original deal.
Last edited by 303Guy; 05-15-2015 at 02:19 AM.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
Like they said back when I studied statistics. Numbers are like loose women; once you get them down, you can do whatever you want with them.
Then, follow the money and see who paid for the study.
We have so many deer around here it is silly and they have been getting smaller. It does not seem to matter how many hunters take.
However it is the lost deer I find that bothers me. Then all that are killed on the roads.
There are poor hunters everywhere of course and most can't shoot either.
The fella down at the other end of the road has poacher problems and once in a while the game dept puts out robo deer.
The creeps shoot a deer in his field and quickly cut out the best parts and leave the rest to rot.
It is very easy to get a place to hunt here, just ask and respect property. Why they have to poach does not make sense.
It is very hard to find a place to hunt in VA so most are on public lands.
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