Titan ReloadingADvertise hereMidSouth Shooters SupplyRepackbox
WidenersLee PrecisionRotoMetals2Inline Fabrication

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 29

Thread: Black MZ clean up

  1. #1

    Black MZ clean up

    I have started to use Aliant Black MZ and have found no matter how well I clean the rifle(wet patches then dry patches next Hoppes.dry patch and finish with oily patch)3 or 4 day later rust looks to appear or a red stain that looks like rust,this cleans up with a couple more Hoppes patches and the bore looks shiny again.Does any one know a way that I can clean the rifle properly the first cleaning

  2. #2
    Moderator Emeritus / Trusted loob groove dealer

    waksupi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Somers, Montana, a quaint little drinking village,with a severe hunting and fishing problem.
    Posts
    17,732
    Herb, I've never used that, but it sounds like it has a high chlorate content. I would try scalding hot water and ammonia. I don't care for putting ammonia in a barrel, as it can also cause flash rust. However, it does neutralize salts from corrosive primers, and that is what I am basing this guess on. I believe there is also Windex with either ammonia or vinegar in it I have heard recommended for corrosive primers. Someone here will know for sure.
    Let us know what you come up with.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master

    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    11,384
    What are the "wet" patches wetted with? This can make a big diffrence in performance of other cleaners and in corrosion. I would brush with windex with vinegar ( not amonia) first. Either a bronze or nylon brush will work here. Then several wet patches with windex to carry out crud. several dry patches, and visually check for fouling. wet patch with Hoppes #9 and let set for 4-10 mins to loosen any existing or hidden fouling. Brush and #9 wet patch to carry any loosend fouling out. Dry patch and oil with quality oil. Balistol mixed 20-1 with water has been a very effective Black popwder solvent also. Some times fouling needs a second cleaning due to what remains in the pore of the barrel steel. Alot used to clean and then reclean 2-3 days later when corrosive ammo was the standard. ANother trick is when lubing barrel use a pactch impregnated with the bullet lube your using tis ios much thicker than most oils and will seal better from external moisture plus help to season the barrel for next session.

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy Hogdaddy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Here if I aint gone,, Were there's a gator in the bushes & SHE"S callin my name
    Posts
    342
    I use TC Bore Butter, Seasons the barrel rather well.. ; )
    H/D

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by country gent View Post
    What are the "wet" patches wetted with? This can make a big diffrence in performance of other cleaners and in corrosion. I would brush with windex with vinegar ( not amonia) first. Either a bronze or nylon brush will work here. Then several wet patches with windex to carry out crud. several dry patches, and visually check for fouling. wet patch with Hoppes #9 and let set for 4-10 mins to loosen any existing or hidden fouling. Brush and #9 wet patch to carry any loosend fouling out. Dry patch and oil with quality oil. Balistol mixed 20-1 with water has been a very effective Black popwder solvent also. Some times fouling needs a second cleaning due to what remains in the pore of the barrel steel. Alot used to clean and then reclean 2-3 days later when corrosive ammo was the standard. ANother trick is when lubing barrel use a pactch impregnated with the bullet lube your using tis ios much thicker than most oils and will seal better from external moisture plus help to season the barrel for next session.
    I have been using windex most of the time ,sometimes just soapy water,this will bring the shine in the bore out then I do pretty much as you sugest.I do recall having to clean the full bore 303 rifles with hot water(still had to check for rust oftan though)Looks like I will just have to treat it like I was shooting corrosive primers

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    NE Nebraska
    Posts
    618
    [QUOTE=Hogdaddy;3243753]I use TC Bore Butter, Seasons the barrel rather well.. ; )
    DITTO- For 20 plus years of competitive shooting and hunting, nothing but BB/natural lube and cleaning with hot water. Recently bought a 'bore light; and my original Lyman's GP barrel is perfect! Flyer

  7. #7
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Hell Gap Wy
    Posts
    5,429
    Might get ahold of some of the Montana Extreme BH209 cleaner and go after that barrel, then when done coat it with their Bore conditioning oil.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master rsrocket1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Sacramento, CA
    Posts
    1,114
    I use either a patch soaked in Hoppes No9 or Break Free CLP followed by several dry patches. No rust in my Optima Pro or Optima V2. I've gone through about 3 pounds of the stuff in the last year and I'm not sure if it's supposed to be treated like a water soluble BP sub or a smokeless type sub. I've even had mixed range sessions going back and forth between BlackMZ and Blackhorn 209 and it doesn't seem to matter what I clean it with, it cleans up just fine. I do swab between shots with the BlackMZ and that may help.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master sthwestvictoria's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    south west victoria, australia
    Posts
    783
    I emailed Alliant about this, they replied to use boiling water & soap then dry and oil.

    BlackMZ creates copious white ash in brass and chamber and I got rust quickly when I was cleaning with just a smokeless solvent. Much better clean up with boiling water in both cartridges and rifle bore.

    There are chlorates and perchlorates in it, this is a Gas Chromatograph study of it (apparetnly BlackMZ is re-labelled American Pioneer):
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	AmericanPioneerGC.jpg 
Views:	72 
Size:	94.2 KB 
ID:	140292
    Last edited by sthwestvictoria; 05-24-2015 at 05:32 AM.
    ars longa, vita brevis

  10. #10
    Perfect,that explains everything,boiling water from now on

  11. #11
    Boolit Buddy


    Black Powder Bill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Madison County Ga.
    Posts
    322
    Ive been shooting ML for around 44 years. Hot water ,IE boiling water will flash rust your bore. Use warm or cold water and a mild soap solution.

    Dry out and use a good lube. Then before shooting wipe with a alcohol dampened patch to remove oil.

    That seasoned bore myth is a joke. You don't season your cartridge J bores do you? I like a nice clean bore , no build up.

    Bore butters make a fair patch and conical it lube . They also make a fair twist drill lube.
    Last edited by Black Powder Bill; 06-12-2015 at 08:41 PM.
    Your're already a criminal, you just haven't been arrested yet!
    BPB Wayne Weekly News 1999
    What I write on this forum or any forum is my opinion unless otherwise stated.

  12. #12
    Boolit Grand Master
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    South Jersey
    Posts
    5,444
    There are chlorates and perchlorates in it,
    Add Ascorbate = Ascorbic Acid
    Interesting combination of ingredients that APP concocted for this substitute powder.
    Regards
    John

  13. #13
    Boolit Master omgb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    1,498
    Please, stop using Hopes for these BP subs. It won't help and it may create a problem. Most definitely do not use anything with ammonia in it. It will mix with the residue and rust your barrel in just a few hours...REALLY! Use hot water and dish soap. Dry and then oil using any good gun oil. I like Rem Oil. In the field, to clean and leave for a day or so, use a 50/50 mix of any good green antifreeze and distilled water. There are alcohol based lubes in the AF that will provide rust inhibition until a proper cleaning can be done. In most cases, Black MZ should honestly not rust for several days. I've gone up to 10 days after shooting without any rust. YMMV
    R J Talley
    Teacher/James Madison Fellow

  14. #14
    Would Edds Red be a safer solvent to use,have stoped using Hopes until bore has been washed out with boiling water dried and oiled and it seems to have worked,now to find a solvent that will not react with the BLACK MZ

  15. #15
    Boolit Master sthwestvictoria's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    south west victoria, australia
    Posts
    783
    Quote Originally Posted by herbert buckland View Post
    Would Edds Red be a safer solvent to use,have stoped using Hopes until bore has been washed out with boiling water dried and oiled and it seems to have worked,now to find a solvent that will not react with the BLACK MZ
    My understanding is there is no need for a actual solvent, other than water and/or soapy water. I believe that I do need to oil the bore after the hot water as unlike my lubed cast bullets with smokeless, once I have poured hot water down my BP bore there is no layer of lube left in the bore to protect it. We know 22LR bores do well with no-minimal cleaning due to the wax layer left. I think if people poured hot water down their 22LR bores they would need to protect it with an oiled patch afterwards.
    ars longa, vita brevis

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,315
    I believe MZ needs to be cleaned with regular smokeless type cleaners. I shot my first MZ yesterday at a Cowboy Action match.....20 rounds in a vintage 1873 (38-40) and 20 rounds in a pair of converted 1858 Remington revolvers (45 Cowboy Special). When I got home and cleaned the firearms I was blown away how clean they were! A few patches with Shooters Choice mixed with Marvel Mystery Oil and they were as clean as a hounds tooth! I then oiled them with RemOil (my favorite storage oil) and put them away.

    I'll have to look at them in a day or two to see if any of the rust you speak about develops.

    I'll tell you one thing, MZ really creates some serious smoke! Even those little 45CS cartridges created so much smoke that I couldn't see the targets! Love it!
    Roy B
    Massachusetts

    www.rvbprecision.com

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by sthwestvictoria View Post
    My understanding is there is no need for a actual solvent, other than water and/or soapy water. I believe that I do need to oil the bore after the hot water as unlike my lubed cast bullets with smokeless, once I have poured hot water down my BP bore there is no layer of lube left in the bore to protect it. We know 22LR bores do well with no-minimal cleaning due to the wax layer left. I think if people poured hot water down their 22LR bores they would need to protect it with an oiled patch afterwards.
    I am running in a new rifle and it is leading a bit just need a solvent that will not react with the BLACK MZ and cause rust

  18. #18
    Boolit Master omgb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    1,498
    Black MZ is to be cleaned with soap and water. That's what the maker says in print, over the phone and on the web, no exceptions. Once it's clean if you have leading, I'd run a tight patch wet with Kroil. Once the lead was out I'd hit it with Rem Oil and be done with it
    s
    R J Talley
    Teacher/James Madison Fellow

  19. #19
    Could not find any information on BLACK MZ any were in Australia ,not a thing written on bottle or pamflet(importers are no help),could not find loading information either that was much help

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Posts
    187
    I see no one has mentioned butch's bore shine to use. I also use real hot soapy water till it's clean and then dry it. The I run a heavily lubed patch down the bore using either bore butter or spg. I try to make sure there is a good even coat of the lube left in.the bore of my cartridge BP rifles and my Breach Loaders. I do the same for my Walker Colt and 1858 Remington. I have also used a bore snake from time to time.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check