Smokeless for Black

[Ball Caster]

How many time has this question been asked, but here goes.
I have a Forehand Model 1901 break top .32 cal. S&W Long. To the best of my knowledge this is a BP era gun. I shoot a lot of BP but I would like to try a low pressure smokeless.
So, I need a smokeless load that is at or below the black powder pressure. I have a number of 90 grain semi-wad cutters that I would like to use.
Unfortunately I cannot find any information on BP pressure and the 15,000 psi for S&W Long I assume is for guns of modern construction.
I have had good luck with low pressure shotgun loads but low pressure smokeless pistol loads evade me.

Any suggestions?

[Snow ninja]

I ALWAYS live by the rule: no smokeless in BP era guns... Not worth it IMO. Good luck on your quest though.

[Lead pot]

You will have better results for your question here http://castboolits.gunloads.com/foru...nd-Handcannons

[John Boy]

This should get you started on your 32 S&W Long smokeless reload
Black powder - 98gr bullet - 13gr FFFg - 780fps

[rfd]

what snow ninja said. going smokeless in that particular firearm is like playing russian roulette at best. feeling that lucky?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It isn't a strong revolver. It isn't even a Webley, in which the rear of the topstrap slot makes contact (albeit oblique contact) with the upstanding tenon in the top of the frame, and the metal mightn't be as good as Smith and Wesson's. Just the same, I am sure you could work up a smokeless load if you really wanted to. You would have to start with really low loads of a medium revolver powder, and be very careful to check whether the bullet encounters a restriction in either chamber throat or barrel.

The trouble is, how do you know what is safe? You don't have a .32 S&W pressure gauge, and we are talking about pressures at which the usual excessive pressure indications are unlikely to be reliable. You can't, for example, keep loading more heavily until you get expansion of the solid head which black powder doesn't give. Primer deformation might be of some benefit, but we are talking very slight differences, on which I would want to use a very powerful lens.


But that is a long way from saying there is any real reason to do so, unless it is difficulty in getting black powder locally. Revolvers with a reasonable chamber length for caliber perform very well with black powder, which as late as the 1930s fuelled the most powerful commercial .45LC Colt load available. Fouling has nothing like the great significance it has in a rifle, and the increase in recoil with black powder, although important in shotguns, is of almost no significance in a .32 revolver.

If 1901 is a year, smokeless powder would have been in regular use in shotguns and rifles, and a reputable manufacturer would have been unwise to market such a firearm unsuitable for its use. No such evaluation is likely to have been required for pocket revolvers, for which black powder was an excellent propellant, and whose owners were likely to have shot (and cleaned) it very infrequently. One of the commercial black powder substitutes, with which you can simply fill the case as you would with black powder, is likely to be a far better alternative. Pyrodex has the reputation of giving occasional but erratic corrosion. I don't believe this would apply to some of the others, though.

[quickdraw66]

Even at similar pressures, the pressure curves will be different between Holy Black and Smokeless. That can cause problems, and those problems might include shrapnel. It may not happen the 1st time, or the 100th time, but it can still happen. For safety's sake, stick to Black.

Do a google images search for "smokeless in black powder gun", and it will cure you of wanting to do that. WARNING, those are some GRAPHIC images...

[acmech]

If you use pyrodex, be as diligent cleaning it as you would blackpowder, it is equally as corrosive. The difference is the residue is a base, not an acid like black powder. Hodgden has special warnings on their website about its use including using vinegar and water to clean the cases and neutralize the corrosive residue.

[Deadpool]

BoS and acmech are right about pyrodex. It is a low-pressure alternative to BP but still contains sulfur. You could try some Triple-Seven, as it is also a BP alternative but burns cleaner and without corrosion. If you want a true smokeless, the safest to try would be Trail Boss.

[quickdraw66]

Keep in mind, Triple Seven is hotter than normal BP. Load accordingly.

[John Boy]

Go to the Hodgdon website and read using Trail Boss reloading data to emulate a black powder load.
Triple Seven? Using this powder is a candidate for a ride in an ambulance!

[oldred]

as it is also a BP alternative but burns cleaner and without corrosion.

Noncorrosive????? Triple 7??????

[rfd]

i dunno of any sub that's kind to metal. i'd never use any of that krap unless i absolutely couldn't get real black (which is extremely hard to imagine thanx to the internet and mail order).

[Deadpool]

Much less corrosive because there isn't any sulfur.

It would be a bit negligent not to mention Hodgdon's Triple Seven powder and pellets on a muzzleloading section, as it is now regarded as the finest commonly available propellant for blackpowder arms. And I cannot disagree.
...
Whether the gun is an A&H flinter, a Thompson Hawken, a Knight Elite, or a Savage 10ML-II, Triple Seven FFg is the one powder that has given superb results in all of them. It is the flexibility, availability, peppiness, and consistency that make Triple Seven FFg loose powder the very first choice for the majority of muzzleloading rifles made today, with the less aggressive corrosive qualities and the lack of sulfur as additional bonuses. For the majority of today's muzzleloading rifles, it is the best that there is. If you've not tried a pound of it yet, do so. Once you have I think you'll feel the same way.

[waksupi]

Much less corrosive because there isn't any sulfur.

Sulfur isn't the corrosive element in BP.

[Deadpool]

Sulfur isn't the corrosive element in BP.

Right, it is water, because BP fouling is hygroscopic. However, water isn't an element. Sulfur is. And it does have an effect on intergranular corrosion of steel, but only after burning. Which brings us back to the water.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...wder-Corrosion

[oldred]

Much less corrosive because there isn't any sulfur.

As pointed out Sulfur is not the major culprit but you said "cleaner and WITHOUT corrosion", WITHOUT corrosion is a heck of a lot different than "much less corrosive"! Also that Chuck Hawks article sure reads suspiciously like a sales ad!


I have seen the "non-corrosive" results of T7 in muzzleloaders!

[dtknowles]

In 1903 the factory .32 S&W long ammo was being loaded with Smokeless powder to similar ballistics and pressures as the original Black Powder ammo so unless your gun's design or construction is deficient it should be ok to use with Factory Smokeless ammo or equivilent reloads. If you have concerns with the gun (and I might be if it was mine as I have a few top break revolvers and keep the loads mild) stick to .32 S&W (short) starting loads and be careful of squibs until you get confidence that the bullet will always get out of the barrel. It is easy to load smokeless to lower pressures than full BP loads but the challenge is to not go too low and get a bullet stuck in the barrel.

Tim

[NoAngel]

Somewhat cleaner.....somewhat meaning, you still need good cleaning practices.

[oldred]

Somewhat cleaner.....somewhat meaning, you still need good cleaning practices.

If there is a "sub" that even comes close to being non-corrosive that's the one! I went through a couple bottles of that stuff back when I first started loading for my 45-90 and was in the middle of trying different powders and working up smokeless loads. I really liked it a lot but, to me anyway, BH209 is more of a low pressure smokeless powder than a true BP substitute since it seems to have far more in common with the Nitro powders than any of the subs even down to the cleaning procedure/products. I have mentioned before that when I was trying this powder I intentionally left two different "Two dollar guns" as I call them left uncleaned for weeks to see what would happen. What happened was not much of anything, a kind of greyish residue formed in the bores and on some metal parts that easily wiped off without a sign of rust underneath but the two 45-90 cases I left uncleaned turned really dark so there definitely is some reaction with brass. Even the one's I cleaned immediately stained fairly heavily but otherwise showed no signs of damage. If a person does not want to use real BP or a low pressure smokeless load then BH209 seems like a really good compromise except for the PRICE! While it's often argued that the 10 oz container has about as much bulk as a 1 lb container of regular bp the fact is it takes a lot of BH 209 (per volume) so the cost per shot can get substantial for someone who shoots a lot but other than that it is great stuff!

I "Think" it produces a good bit more pressure per volume than real BP but how much more, if any, I don't know but there's quite a bit of published cartridge loading data on the web site that lists the expected pressures for any given load, if they would just get the price a bit more in line I think BH 209 will just about make most of the other subs all but obsolete.