Another good tip for newbies

[Blackwater]

Was going back and re-reading Elmer Keith's "Sixguns" today, and re-found it amazing how much one can pick up from his work and this book. His advice on casting and loading and powders, and pretty much anything else he wrote about STILL makes sense. In his time, he didn't have many of the powders or bullets we do today, but he really knew what he DID have to work with, and was masterful at relating that to any who might be interested in trying any of it. His words and advice on casting and loading and shooting are still first rate, and the only difficulty I can see is his use of the American English language is a bit coloquial at times, but it's still pretty easily understood, so that's not a problem.

And BTW, if ya' doubt anything ol' Elmer says, don't. Everybody who ever knew him will avow to his simple and direct honesty. It seriously hurt his feelings that some doubted his tale of shooting a wounded and running buck at 600 yds. with his 4" .44. Honesty for men of his type and era was a sacred thing, and he'd NEVER have stretched the truth an inch for the sake of a "good story." I wish more of our current writers were so scrupulous. If he gave a gun a report, you could rest assured it was what he REALLY thought, and that if anyone edited out any detrimental comments, they'd dang well hear about it form ol' Elmer, and PRONTO, too! If you've never known a man of this type, you've missed something very special.

So if you're learning casting, or any other aspect of shooting or reloading, you really NEED a copy of this book. It's money you'll NEVER regret spending, and you'll enjoy the book for many, many years, and continue to profit form it no matter what stage of development you're in at any given time. This may seem TOO much to be true, but I promise it's not. Just a word to the wise, and those who WANT to be.

[leftiye]

He once shot a deer twice at 500 plus yards. He was asked why he shot it twice. He said - so you would know that it was not a fluke.

[Blackwater]

Mostly, I just like his style, and the fact that his observations and advice are as solid as granite. Things HAVE progressed, but not nearly as far as the glossy ads would have us believe. The basics, and what newbies really need and want IS the basics, at least to start with, are FULLY covered in his chapters on bullets, reloading and shooting, and I can't think of a better place to start. Manuals sometimes tend to reinforce the more exacting aspects of reloading, but Keith's "down home" manner of presentation and explanation tends to make most any reader think, "Yeah! I could do THAT!" and there's really no substitute for that attitude. Today, in our litigious society, we CAN sometimes tend to overemphasize the liabilities of doing something that COULD conceivably hurt us, but Keith's simple and straightforward manner of presentation would, I think, help many who've become a bit skeptical of their abilities to deal with these matters overcome their hesitance, and explore the pursuit more fully and safely. He DOES, after all, caution the loader many times. He just expects people to LISTEN, rather than hammering it in. That, in my opinion, strikes a much more intelligent balance of all the applicable factors, and it's this balance, along with the stuff we learn as we progress, is what allows the more adventurous among us to innovate and expand our beloved hobby and pursuit. That ain't no small thing for a newbie! Just a FWIW post.

[goofyoldfart]

Blackwater, that is a very good post. His writing was easy to understand and he really knew his stuff. thanks for saying what needed to be said. God Bless to all and theirs.
Goofy aka Godfrey

[hydraulic]

Doc Carlson, Upper Missouri Trading Co., black powder editor for Gun Digest, is from Salmon, Idaho and so was Elmer Kieth. Doc knew him well and has a somewhat different take on the veracity of old Elmer.

[waksupi]

Doc Carlson, Upper Missouri Trading Co., black powder editor for Gun Digest, is from Salmon, Idaho and so was Elmer Kieth. Doc knew him well and has a somewhat different take on the veracity of old Elmer.

I first met Doc over 40 years ago. He is a bit opinionated, himself!

By the way, he has lived in Nebraska for decades! I know that is where he was from when I met him.

[olafhardt]

I won't get in an argument over it but when I have analyzed some of Keith's stuff I found it flawed. I also have problems with Whelen, Cooper, Ayoob, Venturino, and others. I am not going to be specific or try to defend my position.

[44man]

I won't get in an argument over it but when I have analyzed some of Keith's stuff I found it flawed. I also have problems with Whelen, Cooper, Ayoob, Venturino, and others. I am not going to be specific or try to defend my position.

My position too. But Elmer was the reason I was shooting the .44 to over 500 yards back in 56. I learned a lot since and a lot of printed matter WAS flawed and still is. One of the worst is Taffin. I would love to teach him how to load and shoot. He uses factory loads at 20 yards from a Ransom rest and has a younger guy shoot now since he never shot right and ruined his wrists.
Mike was a down home type until we had a tiff over how he could afford his guns and all the loading stuff.
Then one gun writer got guns to test with an option to buy at cost, never paid for a single one and kept them all. Why would anyone cheat those that support you?
Today, writers push products, good or bad. Back then truth was told, now read about something and the last page is a full size add. I would prefer Elmer was back. How about Waters or the real hunters like Jack O'Connor?
Just got the Rifleman and the stuff costs more then my first house. My first Ruger .44 cost me $96 and the S&W 29 was $140. Nothing shot better then the old Ruger flat top but I was lead astray by gun rags and have wasted too much.
I miss the old days with Elmer and George Leonard Herter.

[Blackwater]

Elmer always had his detractors, especially with regard to some of the things he reported doing with his guns, and in particular with his handguns. Most people won't believe anyone can do something unlesss THEY can do it themselves, which is simply agnosticism gone mad. However, if one spends as much of his life in the field, at the times and in the places ol' Elmer did, he'd find there's a LOT of stuff that happens, usually due to necessity or fluke occurances, that almost defies explanation. I never knew Elmer, but have known a few who were cast in very similar molds, and to a man, they've been the most scrupulously honest men I've ever known, and they expected the same from others. Like Elmer, they didn't care much if anyone didn't or wasn't able to believe a story they told, but they DID care when their honesty was questioned, and they'd defend themselves by referring to witnesses, but I've never seen or heard anyone checking with those witnesses. Funny how that works out, ain't it? I have done a few things that I seldom refer to because of not liking to be called a liar. I have a friend who has done MANY things that have caused folks to call him a liar too, and on a few occasions, have had stories about him told to support their contention of his liarhood, but I'd been there and seen the instance cited, and let them know it did in fact happen just as described. We live in an agnostic age, where folks tend to disbelieve a lot of things that are indeed True. Mostly, I think this is just because it's become fashionable to think everybody is "equal" in talent, and what one man can do, others, and almost anyone else ought to be able to do. This is without investing the time and thought and effort to become as good at the task in question as the old timer has done. Shoot often enough and in quantity enough, and strange, lucky and exceptional things will happen to YOU, too! Then I guess it'll be YOUR turn to be called a liar if you speak of it???

Elmer was opinionated, but it was due to his EXPERIENCE and his own personal trials and use that he got that way. We used to call that "educated," but in today's PC environment, we like to think anyone should be able to guess what's right and wrong and true or untrue at will. It's just never worked out that way in the real world. He became a controversial figure for his simple, direct honesty, and opinions formed from actual use in practical and necessary pursuits. When some think he was "bragging," he was actually just giving an uncut report of what happened. Men like Elmer DID have a certain amount of pride in their accomplishments, not the least of which was surviving under hard conditions and through perilous adventures, but he ALSO had gratitude for the simple opportunity to have been where he'd been and done what he'd done, and survived. He also had, and it can be clearly seen for those actually seeking the Truth about him rather than just exercising their agnosticism, the simple humility that any man who'd been through all the things he'd experienced. Tough times and tough situations always keep a man humble, and what some see as lack of humility is a simple recounting of what happened, though his coloquial use of an earlier manner of using the English language probably helped with that. He just grew up with and among the culture where that type lingo was used, and naturally melded himself into his own particular situation, that had changed little for the previous century, other than having a few "modern" conveniences, like good ctg. brass, good guns, electricity (in his adult years), and things like that. If you've never known anyone from that era and time and locale, it'd be pretty much impossible to believe someone like Elmer. If you have, and there are fewer and fewer of us left who have, you know. It's just not something to doubt in any way at all.

In many instances, he'd always report that YMMV, and it takes experimentation to find what works best for any given gun, etc., etc., but he'll NEVER be remembered for that. He usually just ASSUMED folks knew elementary things like that, and acted and wrote accordingly. The more "modern" we get, the more that assumption can be legitimately questioned, and the more controversial old timers like Elmer get bashed in print by those who
neither knew him, nor anyone like him, and who just can't MAKE themselves believe some of his writings, or find some of his recommendations don't suit as well as something else. C'est la' vie, I guess? We humans tend to think in a group-think mode these days, and crusty old individualists who simply tell the truths they've found or experienced are resented for being "different" from the herd. That's a dang shame, but it's what we "moderns" have come to do, nevertheless.

As to whether his advice is worthy of perusal and trial by newbies, though, it'd be awfully hard to find a better source of casting advice. Maybe not impossible, but his easy (if coloquial at times) manner DOES, as I originally said, tend to make the beginner or newbie think, "Yeah, I could do that," and THAT, brothers, is a very important part of getting folks into casting, and finally realizing the real potential of cast bullets, and I don't think anyone here can see that as a bad thing, can they? More technical info is available, but that's the fine points, and anyone who simply observes and pays attention to what happens when they do this or that, CAN learn themselves as they go along, and that I think was Elmer's original intent in the things he included in the book, "Sixguns." It was mostly intended as a good, thorough primer, not as a PhD level treatise, and taken as that, I can't think of another single source that'd do what all this book can, if we but pay attention to what he says, and try it, instead of decrying him from simple agnosticism. But since I'm not a "modern," and don't ever want or intend to be, I guess I'm just a little out of step with "current" thinking. I'm grateful for that, but of course, YMMV at will, if not in actual fact. Newbies who DO read it, AND heed it, will likely benefit from the experience. Isn't that what this whole forum is supposed to be all about???

[dsbock]

I used to have a link for a free PDF download of this and many other classic gun books.

Does anyone know if there is still such a place?

Thanks.

David

[Blackwater]

I think Wolfe publishing sells copies, but don't have info on PDF's.

[44man]

I had a friend in Ohio that told stories about hunting and everyone called him a fiction writer and liar. I started to hunt with him and for many years. We went back to work and he would tell the tales. He never, ever varied from what happened and I know because I was there. Sadly one of the best friends I had has passed but I will never forget him.
Elmer was like that, if he said it, he did it. We lost an honest and great man. Most of the best are gone to our detriment.
I have to thank the OP and others that feel the same. All we have left is to give a prayer. Back then it was truth and dedication, not profit. Now a gun rag is not worth a sit on the commode before it is done. Too bad the pages are not as good as an old Sears catalog!

[Blackwater]

Amen, 44! I quit subscribing to any of the glossy mags years ago. I just can't see paying for what mostly amounts to advertising for the advertisers in the mags. When Ross Seyfried got canned from one of the mags, I bought few subsequent issues, and ONLY if it contained an article I was particularly interested in. Seyfried said what he actually thought, and wouldn't compromise that for ANY reason. It's a danged shame that what we get fed today is a type of "group think" based on what people WANT to think so they're not challenged very hard, instead of good info that, while it'll challenge them, CAN, with experience and trial and effort in application, make them rise to heights of proficiency they'd never before expected they had the talent to rise to. We're homogenizing ourselves, and THAT is DANGEROUS! Look at the muslim terrorists. They take a gun and leave their fate up to Allah. They learn how to operate the gun and figure Allah will guide the bullets. In a fight, they jump from cover, fully exposing themselves and spraying a magazine full of ammo in the general direction of their adversary (our boys), while making loud and harsh noises and maybe cursing us, while one of our boys pops him and settles that little matter quickly. BIG difference, and the results speak for themselves, or at least they do for anyone who still has decent observational skills. Today, though, we too often and too typically ONLY look for what we WANT to see. The Good Book says, "Seek and ye shall find," but it didn't explain that you'll find whatever it is you're seeking, and if you go into a situation WANTING to find something, then you'll diddle about with the facts available until you come up with your pre-conceived notion. But what does a dumb redneck down in the swamps know? I just watch what happens, and try to figure it all out, and don't subscribe to any set of pre-judged results that I WANT to be true. Some of us are just out'a step with the rest of the world today. I'm comfortable with that, though. VERY comfortable. Ol' Elmer didn't have time, literally, for anything that didn't work, and work well. We could all benefit from that today, but sadly, we are in too big a hurry to bother with much real thinking or reflection. Dang shame about that, too.

[Mal Paso]

I think Wolfe publishing sells copies, but don't have info on PDF's.

I bought Sixguns and Sixgun Cartridges and Loads on Amazon so cheap I didn't have to think about it. Less than Half of what Wolfe charges.

Elmer wasn't perfect but I haven't seen one critic that came close to what Elmer accomplished.

[44man]

My life is trial and error, more error actually. I might make more mistakes then any one because I listen to others. I should know better since I have debunked a lot about guns.
Had air in my well water. I was told I was picking up dirt in the pump, keeping the valve from shutting. I replaced the pump, wire and line. Raised the pump 3 times before I was in the center of the water column. Still air! Blow the top off the toilet tank.
I made a test tool with a tire valve and gauge to put pressure in the line in the yard. Gauge dropped as soon as I removed the air pressure. I dug and found a broken connecter.
I spent too much money by listening to those that were wrong.
You know darn well I did not want to face the truth and use a shovel, easy way out. I knew it but avoided the facts.
Many today are doing what I did, easy way out. I am as guilty as anyone else.
I listened to those that said a big meplat is all you need to kill. same thing, it is NOT true. Failures drive me nuts so I did more work. TL is accurate and stops leading, NOT true so I tested every boolit lube on earth. You can shoot a real heavy boolit slow, NOT true. Twist does not mean anything in a revolver, NOT true.
It never ends but the old timers had a good insight after making mistakes. If you never make a mistake to learn from, you came from another planet.
Today it is always the easy way out. Ask a question and you can have 100 wrong answers so how do you pick, Darn it you must test for yourself.
When anyone asks something, they flow to the easy way even if wrong.
I am harsh from 77 years of failures. I remember my uncle with me on his shoulders going through a doorway, banging my head. I think I was one at the time.
I watched my father working on a car with no luck. I was about 5, Told him to do it this way and he cussed at me "WHAT DO YOU KNOW." He struggled until he did what I said and it worked. I already knew about a file that was full of shavings and he had one in his toolbox so I tapped it and broke it. Put it back and never said a word. Don't hit a file hard!
If you don't think early writers never had failures to learn from you are nuts. they deserve respect.
Today you need a $2500 scope to shoot deer. Not when a $50 Bushnell does the same. The last Rifleman was worth a fart on the porcelain fitting.

[Blackwater]

You really make me smile, 44man. It seems we have much in common. Maybe not all the same, but very similar. It's always good to communicate with a real kindred spirit. My grandkids, and even my son just can't make themselves believe some of the stories I have, but I don't waste my or their time with anything but the Truth. They just live in a very different world now, than the one you and I grew up in. Back then, we were outside, finding stuff to get into and play or "work" with. We learned some very practical and useful things from that, and we learned how to "sort it out" as the Brits used to say. Leo Fender used to make his guitars and amps by the simple "cut and try" method, and his designs are STILL the best, so much so that really knowledgeable and intensely passionate players pay very big bucks for old ones in great condition, or restored ones with the right size and value and type of caps and resistors. Cut and try DOES involve making mistakes, but it darn sure leads to really good results in the end, and it's pretty interesting and a great challenge along the way. Today, most want ready-made pat answers, and mostly just want to follow the leader, whoever and whatever that leader is, notwithstanding sometimes. I guess we're just relics of a bygone day? I'll take that. There's no learning like PERSONAL learning that's PROVEN itself, is there?

[DrCaveman]

Great thread, blackwater, great posts too. A few more paragraph breaks would be my only request

I never had Sixguns to read growing up, i only learned about it after seeing reference to mr Keith on this site and others. Reading it lent a whole new attitude to my approach, much in the way you describe

Great book. If bullseye, unique, or 2400 were available in any continuous supply, Sixguns is about all the data one needs for loading 38 thru 44 mag.

Unfortunately, powder is in short supply so other references are needed for actual load data. Shucks on that. Furthermore, the world is full of liars whose main intention is to make a buck.

There are more people like this than ever before, by sheer numbers. They make their voices loud because they stand to make some free money from convincing someone else to spend their hard earned wages on a product they do not need. This occurs in SO many walks of life these days that it is, sadly, a fool who walks into a sales situation with the belief that the seller is being totally truthful

Bigger towns and cities are the worst. In any case, it makes people gun-shy and not wanting to be bamboozled by amazing claims. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[44man]

Blackwater, I always love your posts.
Having a family and losing a job from a lay off is tough and back then we went looking for work or earning from side jobs. It brought great fear into our lives.
Today people don't care, just sign up and never need to work. Wife watched a real fat slob at the meat counter grabbing the best roasts and steaks, filled two carts with the best. Wife was behind her in check out, over $300 and she swiped a snap card.
Long ago I had a lot of TV problems and could not afford to get them fixed so I took a cheap course. Soon I was the repair man for all the neighborhood and even found TV's in my garage when I came home from work from over 100 miles away. I did the best job i could do and everyone said it looks better then when new. All setup after fixing a problem was not charged for and I worked cheap. It let me give my check from work to the wife and I had TV money for guns, etc. I always had over $300 in my wallet but it took many TV's to get it, not from one or two.
I found how the TV repairmen around were cheating people, it was unreal. I could not do that so I have pride to this day in my work. I charged $25 for a lightning strike when the TV shop was charging $79 for a fuse change and maybe a diode. So you see income was a trickle from a lot of work. The amount of friends I made can't be set to money.
I had to move and everyone around here that needs a mower fixed or whatever, I will go. I now have the best hunting ever in my life since I can go anywhere.
The lady down the road lets me bring any friends and last year her truck would not start. We came out of the woods and my friend Don and I worked on it to find it needed wires, spark plugs, rotor and cap. Plugs were frozen in and needed Kroil and working back and forth to get out. I installed new plugs with anti seize on them.
Same old thing, she was told plugs never needed changed. Her cost was parts!
Gunsmith work has always been a part and I fixed thousands, built custom rifles, checkered stocks and made long rifles, carved and engraved, never over charged. I find stuff and post to make an enemy or a detractor, fine, I no longer care but it hurts to have an enemy.
I say some bad things but will apologize. I am thought as gruff sometimes, but maybe I earned it. I might be more like Elmer and Herter then anyone. I will never lie or cheat.
Lessons learned by work and mistakes are life, better then getting handed all you want free. Darn I hate that fat slob! You should see her fat kids, fat on my taxes.
Ever see the Wallmartions pictures?

[Blackwater]

Again, 44man, you make me smile. I understand completely. We're pretty similar in a lot of ways. I too can be rather "abrupt" according to some today, but as you say, I came by it honestly. I've never understood how the PC folks today think they're ever going to learn much when they say and act how they THINK others expect them to, rather than how they REALLY think and want to act? When people differ, it's best to acknowledege it and work things out, even if it's just to agree to disagree. "Group think" has NEVER worked out well, but that seems to be how most folks think and act today. Those who actually get "out there" and DO things tend to be rather quiet, unless they really have something of value to say, but many decry their straying from the herd nowadays, which is no skin off'a my nose, since I've no desire to EVER subscribe to PCness. I generally try to just stay quiet, since making a fuss rarely changes anything or anyone's mind. You just can't teach anyone who doesn't WANT to learn, or who thinks they already have all the answers. I surely don't, but I KNOW I don't. I DO have a body of info that's as concrete for me as I could ever want, but there are FAR too many things in this life for anyone to ever know all that's worth knowing. I keep trying to expand my knowledge, and will do so until I die. It's such a vast universe, and so very much to learn in it. If THAT didn't keep a man humble, what could? It's a lot like scientists: The more they learn, the more questions they have IF they're worth their salt. The LESS they know, the more opinionated they tend to be, and the more loudly they proclaim their "opinions." The only thing I really resent about today's "rules" of etiquette and common parlance is when someone calls me a liar when they clearly have no idea what is involved in the subject at hand. And it's not uncommon at all now. I think this might well be a very large portion of the REASON our nation is falling to its lowest ebb ever, with little to suggest a turnaround in the forseeable future? But we've already digressed from the purpose of this thread and the board, so I guess we ought to get back to "business" now? And BTW, I love your posts, too. They always make sense, and add to our body of knowledge here, and I think I see why now.

[1Shirt]

Have known Doc for many years, a good man. Saw Elmer at an NRA convention in DC many years back. As far as I am concerned, If Elmer said he could do it, I take it as fact.
1Shirt!