Don't tell me I can't...

[gitano]

swage .510" bullets in a reloading press. (The following narrative is a few years old, but I think it 'works' here for those interested in swaging their own bullets with their reloading press OR using a tree burr to make one's own custom mold.)



This is the first bullet I made from the swaging die I cut. I am pleased with it. It's a bit heavy at 550, but that's easily remedied. Dave Corbin, and others, have repeatedly told me that it is not possible to swage bullets larger than about .30 caliber on 'regular' reloading presses. When I pressed for reasons, the 'weather' suddenly got hazy. Continued pressing on my part lead to reasons like, "It takes too much pressure" and "The strokes are too short on reloading presses".

Both those justifications may be true for some kinds of swaging operations, but I was very clear - repeatedly - that my needs were simple. Of course "simple" often doesn't sell hardware. I need neither great force, nor a long stroke to make these bullets. The jacket - the forward part of a 'magnum' cartridge case - is nearly pre-formed, and the core is too, as it is simply the Lee 458 Postell 3R cast bullet. Here's a picture of the starting components.



On the left is a .338 Win Mag case. Next is the case with the head parted (I use the rear of the case as a jacket too after turning the belt off), and the neck turned off the shoulder. The forward part is what is used for the jacket in these bullets. In the middle is the Lee .458 3R Postell (507-grains from my mould). I simply insert the Postell into the front of the Mag case, and press into the swaging die.

Of course, I haven't shot them yet, but my previous experiments using the case heads as jackets was very promising. I expect these to do at least as well. Consistency will be necessary for good precision shooting, but I think I can get all the consistency I need in final weight by weighing each 'jacket' and core prior to swaging.

I also like the long nose on these bullets. That turns out to be purely serendipity (blind good fortune) as it is the profile of the "reamer" I used. That reamer cost me $21.99 (13.90 for the reamer, 6.10 for shipping, and 1.99 for "handling") off EBay. Custom reamer-making shops either said they couldn't make one, or quoted a price of at least $140 (some MUCH higher). The "reamer" is actually a 1/2" "tree burr". Here's a picture of one exactly like what I got. http://www.ebay.com/itm/SG-5-Tree-Sh...item3cdf961baf

While the reamer is only 0.500" in maximum diameter, it occurred to me that I could mount it in my tool-holder and offset it the necessary 0.010" to ream the ID I wanted. (Actually I reamed it to 0.515" so I could run it through my .510" Lee bullet sizer for an exact final diameter.) Worked like I knew what I was doin'.

Reaming the die is tedious, as the whole surface of the burr is cutting. In order to make the cavity as smooth as possible, I was only able to take 0.020" cut between clearing chips from the cavity and the burr. Since the cavity is 1.5" deep (deep enough to make a 600-grain bullet), that was 75 cuts (1.500"/0.020" = 75).

It wasn't 'easy' to get to this point of actually making bullets, but it wasn't 'hard' either. It just required a hard head. Once the burr was found, the process went like this:

1) Thread a 3" piece of 1" diameter steel rod to 7/8-14 to fit a standard reloading die.
2) Drill a 3/16" pilot hole (later to become the hole through which the bullet is removed from the swage) through the threaded billet.
3) Ream to 1" depth with the burr mounted in the tail-stock.
4) Ream (with 1/2" drill) "shank" to 0.5" deep.
5) Install burr in tool-holder - off-set desired amount for exact diameter.
6) "Cut" (as opposed to "ream", as now the burr is only cutting on one side) into full depth of 1.5".
7) Polish.
8) Make a 'ram' that fits in the reloading die ram, for pressing the unswaged components into the swage.

Making the core should be obvious - it's just a cast bullet. Making the jacket is a bit more complicated, but not too big a deal.
1) Chuck the magnum case (.338, 7mm, .300, etc., any 'standard' magnum case) in the lathe with the head out.
2) Turn off belt.
3) Remove and chuck case in lathe with mouth out.
4) Turn off neck.
5) Part case at predetermined length for specific bullet weight.

At that point, it's just a matter of inserting the nose of the core into the 'jacket', applying a little lube, and pressing into the swage. A tap on the nose through the top hole drops the bullet out of the swage. It pops out at about 0.5145" in diameter. I then run it through the Leee sizing die, and it is 0.5103". Voila'.

And it didn't cost me $2000 dollars, which is what it would have cost me (including shipping) to get Corbin's complete set-up. Of course his equipment might very likely make 'better' bullets. However, if these shoot as straight as the seriously clunky ones I made "by hand" before shot, I'll be happy as a clam.

Paul

PS - Calculated BC for this bullet is .454 -

Paul

PPS - I should point out that it takes more than one stroke of the press to form the bullet. What I do is unscrew the die to a point where I can 'cam over' the handle of the press but just form the bullet a "little bit". I screw the die in 1/4 turn and do it again. It takes me about 8 strokes to finish the bullet. I appreciate that such a process does not lend itself to 'production', but that doesn't matter to me. BEING ABLE TO MAKE MY OWN BULLETS IS ALL THAT MATTERS TO ME.

PPPS - Here is the result of using the actual bullet I posted above (the one on the left) - he went about 7 body lengths...



Paul

[MrWolf]

Nice job! Love the ingenuity and good read on how you did it. Congrats.

Ron

[andyt53]

Very interesting! This just shows that almost anything can be done if one person is motivated. Good job gitano, and they look very nice!

[gitano]

Thanks fellas. I have 'moved on' a bit from when this was first written. I now have a "real" swaging press and "real" (Corbin) dies. (Getting the dies from Corbin was a 24-month saga similar to many that have been down that road.) HOWEVER... now that I have the commercially available dies in hand AND have my own hand-made ones, I won't be getting any more commercial ones. There is no doubt that the commercially manufactured dies are 'better', but I am reminded of so many aspects of our lives that are "over-built" since the advent of "technology". If you'll allow me to digress for a moment:

Back in the late '60s when integrated circuits were finally making their way into the "consumer" market, "Hi-fi" sound recording (high fidelity for those of you not of that era), was really coming into its own in the consumer market. Of course the hucksters, snake-oil salesmen, and charlatans were slithering their way out of the weeds into this new 'fertile' ground. Soon, engineering specs (terms and specs 'regular Joes' were unfamiliar with), were dominating the sales hyperbole. A couple of the ones often used to describe the "quality" of a particular piece of equipment were "wow and flutter". (This especially for tape recorders and record players.) Salesmen would tell potential customers that their stereo had better "wow and flutter" specs than their competitors. Was this lying? No. Was it deceitful? YES! Here's why: By the time these "integrated circuits" had hit the consumer market, the industry had easily achieved the ability to make recording and playback devices with technical specifications that greatly exceeded the capability of human hearing. In other words, the "wow and flutter" specs of the cheapest "Hi-Fi Stereo" were well beyond the ability of a human to detect. This is why the "salesman" (the nice word for these people), weren't "lying", but they were DECEIVING their customers. There are many more examples, but let me return to the shooting industry, and particularly bullets and bullet making.

Today, we have bullet manufacturers that are constantly bombarding us with new bullets that employ the "newest technology". I have a question for them: "How dead is dead enough?" I'm not going to get into a spitting contest over the 'value' of new bullets, but I will say that I am "not impressed". Especially with the newest "mono-metal" whiz-bang offerings. Don't get me wrong. I am extremely grateful that we in this country are not only ABLE to be creative, but also that we have a healthy firearms industry. Just don't try to sell me deader than dead - AKA snake-oil.

Specifically with respect to swaging bullets, one needs dies the quality of Corbin's and others IF AND ONLY IF 1) You are going into the business of making bullets, or 2) you are a SERIOUSLY (make a living as a), competitive shooter. If you are a hunter, (not a 'sniper' that shoots game animals at 500 yd and more), then there is NO NEED for astronomical specifications of ("wow and flutter) on the finish and concentricity of your bullets. Please spare me the argument that goes like this: "If you are really a SERIOUS hunter that CARES about the animals you shoot, there is no boundary to the efforts you will take to ensure an ethical kill". Honestly - and let me repeat that for emphasis - HONESTLY, those are fighting words to me. Translating that argument from the arrogance of "ethicists" and snake-oil salesmen to reality-speak, goes like this: "If you are stupid enough to believe what I spew, then there is no end to the money I can get you to part with by shaming you into thinking that what I am trying to sell you will actually make one bit of difference when the bullet hits the animal."

SO... If you're not going into business, or your not making bullets for your profession of competitive shooting, make your own bullets and ignore the hucksters, snake-oil salesmen, and charlatans. If you ARE planning to go into business selling bullets or you ARE a competitive shooter, then by all means get the tools you need to achieve the goals you have. (These tools can STILL be made by you, by the way.)

Let me make it clear that I am not calling Corbin, or for that matter, anyone else specifically, snake-oil salesmen. BUT... "Hype" is hype, and those that try to shame us into believing something that is not 'real' - as opposed to not TRUE - may not be liars, but they are deceivers. "You will know them by their fruit" has become my guiding principle in this era of "mass media", the internet, and "technology". That phrase has always been true, but it seems that we need it more today more than we have in a long time.

A bit of an apology is in order for 'preaching' I suppose, but I just HATE to see the creativity of people thwarted by deceivers. "YOU", whomever "you" are, CAN do much, MUCH, more than the hucksters, snake-oil salesmen, and charlatans would have "you" believe. Do not be discouraged! As a friend of mine says: "Fill yer boots, boy!". What's the worst that can happen, you'll fail? SO WHAT! The next one will be better!

I suppose at a site like "Cast Boolits", I'm probably "preachin' to the choir" for the most part. Mea culpa.

Paul

[RED333]

"Cant" is a poor excuse for not knowing how, looks like you learned how, good job.
Thanks for the post.

[bullet maker 57]

I applaud your ingenuity and finished product.

[aaronraad]

Specifically with respect to swaging bullets, one needs dies the quality of Corbin's and others IF AND ONLY IF 1) You are going into the business of making bullets, or 2) you are a SERIOUSLY (make a living as a), competitive shooter. If you are a hunter, (not a 'sniper' that shoots game animals at 500 yd and more), then there is NO NEED for astronomical specifications of ("wow and flutter) on the finish and concentricity of your bullets. Please spare me the argument that goes like this: "If you are really a SERIOUS hunter that CARES about the animals you shoot, there is no boundary to the efforts you will take to ensure an ethical kill". Honestly - and let me repeat that for emphasis - HONESTLY, those are fighting words to me. Translating that argument from the arrogance of "ethicists" and snake-oil salesmen to reality-speak, goes like this: "If you are stupid enough to believe what I spew, then there is no end to the money I can get you to part with by shaming you into thinking that what I am trying to sell you will actually make one bit of difference when the bullet hits the animal."

SO... If you're not going into business, or your not making bullets for your profession of competitive shooting, make your own bullets and ignore the hucksters, snake-oil salesmen, and charlatans. If you ARE planning to go into business selling bullets or you ARE a competitive shooter, then by all means get the tools you need to achieve the goals you have. (These tools can STILL be made by you, by the way.)

Let me make it clear that I am not calling Corbin, or for that matter, anyone else specifically, snake-oil salesmen. BUT... "Hype" is hype, and those that try to shame us into believing something that is not 'real' - as opposed to not TRUE - may not be liars, but they are deceivers. "You will know them by their fruit" has become my guiding principle in this era of "mass media", the internet, and "technology". That phrase has always been true, but it seems that we need it more today more than we have in a long time.

A bit of an apology is in order for 'preaching' I suppose, but I just HATE to see the creativity of people thwarted by deceivers. "YOU", whomever "you" are, CAN do much, MUCH, more than the hucksters, snake-oil salesmen, and charlatans would have "you" believe. Do not be discouraged! As a friend of mine says: "Fill yer boots, boy!". What's the worst that can happen, you'll fail? SO WHAT! The next one will be better!

I suppose at a site like "Cast Boolits", I'm probably "preachin' to the choir" for the most part. Mea culpa.

Paul

I enjoy the odd bit of hypocrisy, it forces me to stop and become a little self-critical.

Title to thread: "Don't tell me I can't..."

followed by

"Specifically with respect to swaging bullets, one needs dies the quality of Corbin's and others IF AND ONLY IF..."

Well I enjoyed that anyway. I'll pre-empt my comments below rating them as critical of Paul's posts above, but hopefully constructive to some degree.

I get what you're saying, but it's a bit hard to swallow when you want to compare your one-off die with the information you receive from someone in the business of selling his own dies & tooling. I wouldn't walk into a Ford dealer and ask him if it's possible to drop a 1.6 litre 4-cyl engine into a F-250 and still get it to tow 4.5 tonnes, all the while expecting a straight answer from anyone in Ford. A) Sales people cannot know everything and even the best will still only tell you exactly what they know. B) Sales people aren't necessarily there to perform any sort of community engineering information service. It's nice when they can, but I'd hardly want them to left liable following engineering information they provided in good faith.

The fact is there is a significant difference between knocking up (or spec'ing out) anything for yourself as a hobby and then producing the same item (repeatedly) on a commercial basis, including the service/support required to deal with the general public.

When you asked "others" if it's possible to swage .510 bullets with a reloading press, did you mention that you were also going to take 8 strokes to point form? Or that you wouldn't mind making them oversize and then resizing with a Lee Sizing Die?

Of course no one here including I, would deny your accomplishments, your commitment and your results, but you have to be blessed with the equipment, tools, skill, time, money and the breathing room to make mistakes in the first place...or at least convince the wife you do!

So here is the litmus test for the idea you're selling us on this forum thread ...for me the first step would be to see if someone else will take a crack at it and get the same results (not necessarily including the moose). I'm sure one critical post won't stop you from posting the results of your next swaging project, but I can understand if I'm off the Christmas card list for yourself and possibly a few others.

Just remember preachers too are renowned for selling the hype to their customers too...you see its hard not to enjoy the odd bit of hypocrisy.

[gitano]

I'm 'fine' with critique or even criticism as long as it's reasonable, aaronraad, and while I found your comments flawed, I took them in the spirit in which I considered they were given.

Let me address some at least of your assertions of hypocrisy:

Title to thread: "Don't tell me I can't..."

followed by

"Specifically with respect to swaging bullets, one needs dies the quality of Corbin's and others IF AND ONLY IF..."

I fail to recognize the hypocrisy there.

Let preface my following comments with some information in addition to that significant information (especially in the context of your criticism), provided in the OP. The critical (WRT your assertions) information was:

Dave Corbin, and others, have repeatedly told me that it is not possible to swage bullets larger than about .30 caliber on 'regular' reloading presses. ... Continued pressing on my part

and

but I was very clear - repeatedly - that my needs were simple.

I thought I made clear that I had had several conversations with several swaging equipment manufacturers, and had been "repeatedly" be told that one COULD NOT swage bullets larger that .30 caliber on a "reloading" press. The "additional" information I would now add in response to your assertions is that I had several LONG conversations with these people in which I made as clear as it is capable of being made in the English language, that what EYE (for emphasis) was interesting in was NOT "business"; was NOT competitive shooting; was MAKING bullets for myself. I thought that point was clear in my OP, but either it was not, or you didn't read that part. By "long" conversations, I'm talking about hours long, over a few years, with several people. It wasn't 'casual' conversations. It was me trying to GET some equipment - GIVE THEM MONEY - so I could MAKE MY OWN BULLETS. In spite of repeated assertions by me that I was willing to "do what was necessary, as long as you will sell me the dies", the response was always the same. That response wasn't "Well, you could do it if you were willing to put in a little extra effort." It wasn't. "You might be able to do it if you were willing to do "this"." It was "NO. You CAN NOT do it." Period. "They" were wrong. Period.

While like you, I wouldn't expect a car salesman to understand and/or explain the use of a specific engine in a specific chassis, Dave Corbin, Richard Corbin, the Detch 'boys' (sp?), and Blackmon, are THE "engineers", not some "floor salesman". I went right to the horses' mouths.

I fail to recognize the hypocrisy on my part.

When you asked "others" if it's possible to swage .510 bullets with a reloading press, did you mention that you were also going to take 8 strokes to point form? Or that you wouldn't mind making them oversize and then resizing with a Lee Sizing Die?

Nope. What we did discuss was WHY it was supposedly "impossible" to do on a reloading press. The reasons given were: "Not strong enough"; "Not long enough stroke"; and "Insufficient mechanical advantage". Those reasons are wrong because they are made in the general, and therefore include ALL circumstances. Again, it wasn't "Well, you might be able to do it, if you stand on your left leg during a blue moon." It was "NO. For something as large as .50 caliber it can NOT be done on a reloading press. Therefore we do NOT make swaging dies larger than .30 caliber for use in reloading presses." There was no "waffling" over several conversations over extended periods of time.

Anyone with even a little experience with resizing rifle cases knows that the power in a hand-operated press comes at the point right before the lever-arm 'cams over'. It took me about 18 milliseconds to apply what I already knew about the mechanical advantage of a reloading press - something I feel confident ALL bullet swaging die manufacturers also know - to simply move the die "out" in order to accomplish my goal. Your comment implies that I'm being "unfair" to them because I "figured" out that I could work around the "mechanical DIS-advantage of the reloading press. I would say that your comment strongly suggests that you think them very ignorant, but I doubt very seriously that is correct. The fact is, I could probably do the complete forming in two strokes instead of eight, but I don't like forcing things when it isn't necessary.

Finally, I made the die "large" (0.5145") on purpose. Neither was that 'accident' nor lack of precision. I prefer to "size" bullets in a sizing die. That assures me of a VERY consistent diameter independent of a swaging die. If the bullets made by most manufacturers weren't so dang close to perfect in diameter, I'd swage ALL of the bullets I shoot. In fact, I often swage commercial bullets from one caliber to another, both "up" and "down".

It is interesting that you proffer the "litmus test". As we 'speak' I am walking someone through the process for them to make their own .510 caliber bullets using the very same processes, methods, and methodology that I outlined above. This "walk through" is being accomplished via email, so there should be no question of the "transferability" of the 'technology' should the outcome be similar (excluding the moose, ) to the outcome I achieved.

My 'sermon' was more about "Don't be discouraged by "experts" ", or "Try it. You CAN do it", than " "Those" guys are bad". I wonder if the scalded dog doesn't howl the loudest...

I appreciate "watchfullness" with respect to hypocrisy. We can all commit that "sin" if we are not careful. Furthermore, no one is more critical - especially of hypocrisy - than I am of myself. Rereading my initial comments in light of your assertions of hypocrisy, I find your assertions - of hypocrisy on my part - flawed and incorrect. Nonetheless, I appreciate the civility with which you made your assertions and assure you that no offense was taken. You're still on the Christmas card list. I look forward to future "QC".

Paul

[R.Ph. 380]

But, I having no recourse to or access to machinery that I could build on, actually prefer to buy the capability and pay someone else for their research and development. Had I owned a lathe, I would have tried to design and cur my own dies, but I can afford a lathe and machining even less than I can afford the retail available dies.

I sure do enjoy, though, the reporting of different people's trials, research and development. It's just the fact though that I don't have the expertise, the resources or the time to develop my own dies and therefore will happily buy the results of someone's hard work.

Bill

[ncbearman]

Well spoken by all parties involved. Good exchange of info here. To the point gitano is trying to make, I agree. I too was clueless about swaging but very interested. As I "swam" around this forum for quite some time I was able to educate myself on the process but realized swaging was way beyond my financial reach. As I thought the only place to get the dies was from the guys gitano mentioned. I don't have machining capabilities at my disposal but from one simple post by a member here I found the CH 101 dies to make my beloved .45's from .40 cases at a reasonable price. Now once I had them I also realized I could get by with just one die instead of 2. For my purposes anyway (ring steel and punch paper) just to lower my reloading costs. Then not long after that I saw where one guy was swaging with modified existing dies from RCBS and then using the Lee sizing die. Its good to have the variety of ideas put out before us all. We are all at varying levels of our hobby. If I had the money I would gladly pay for alot of things that I now modify or repurpose to fit my needs. Necessity is the mother of invention and I also end up enjoying the process. You gents did a great job exchanging thoughts and ideas. Usually I am forced to stop reading 2 or 3 paragraphs into the "exchange" as it gets ugly fast. My results weren't perfect but I can hear the 12" steel pig ring at me at 25 yards with my Dad's WWII 1911!

Attachment 138327 Attachment 138328

[aaronraad]

The fact is, I could probably do the complete forming in two strokes instead of eight, but I don't like forcing things when it isn't necessary.

Please don't! Every time a swaging die cracks a range officer somewhere stops collecting spent 22LR cases to redraw into jackets.

It is interesting that you proffer the "litmus test". As we 'speak' I am walking someone through the process for them to make their own .510 caliber bullets using the very same processes, methods, and methodology that I outlined above. This "walk through" is being accomplished via email, so there should be no question of the "transferability" of the 'technology' should the outcome be similar (excluding the moose, ) to the outcome I achieved.

I had a feeling you might have someone on the hook. Any chance your padawan will be in a position to detail/document/image a few of the major steps involved with the 510 cal swage die on the forum through yourself, or as a member on their own? An opportunity worth capturing I think.

Philosophically speaking then, expert or not, lets say you (or someone else with enough time to read this post) built and sold a range of 22 Magnum rifles for a living. One day you receive a call from a potential customer, he asks you if it's possible to kill a polar bear with any old 22 Magnum. You don't know this person from a bar of soap, but they are very eager to kill a polar bear with a 22 Magnum nonetheless. How do you respond? Do you encourage them to the point of selling them one of your fine 22 Magnum rifles and a box of ammunition, or do you discourage them stating distance, angle, vital zone, energy limits, polar bear speed vs yours on pack ice, how they like to cover their nose when hunting and other fun facts.

Two years later a man walks into your retail shop front with obvious facial features indicative of an Inuit geology. He asks you if you are the current business owner and if you also owned the business 2 years ago. To which you reply "Yes and yes.". He then produces a picture of himself holding what seems to be a bolt action rimfire rifle alongside one very large, dead polar bear. While you're still staring at the picture the man adds the comment, "I only wanted to hunt polar bear to provide meat for my family like my father and his father before him. So I came to you, hoping you would build me a 22 Magnum for polar bear given your renown for excellent 22 Magnum rifles". So did you sell him a 22 Magnum 2 years ago; and if you didn't do you now add a Polar Bear model to your fine hunting line of 22 Magnum rifles?

Funny thing is while you're both standing there in the shop, a potential customer walks in and see the picture your looking at and says, "Damn I want to hunt polar bear with a rimfire too. You've got to build the same rifle for me or tell me how to do it!" You haven't had a chance to look up and see if this shopper is of Inuit decent also, but boy is he keen.

...Is there even a right or wrong answer here????

[gitano]

I can tell you exactly how I would respond to your hypothetical, aaronraad:

"Yes, you can hunt polar bear with a rifle chambered in .22 magnum. In fact, I know of a fellow in Nome that killed a brown bear with a .17 Remington. There are risks however. Since I am not responsible for what you do with my rifle after you take possession of it, I would be just fine with not only continuing making these rifles, but also selling them to you even if you were to tell me that you were going polar bear hunting with it. I am not responsible for you or what you decide to do with equipment or machinery you purchase from me."

In your scenario, I am apparently an "expert" in polar bear hunting because I make firearms chambered in .22 Magnum rifles. While logically fallacious, we can pursue this philosophical exercise taking that erroneous assumption at face value, and return to the issues specifically at hand, namely the manufacture and sale of bullet swaging dies.

First, the "mis-use" of bullet swaging dies (like the mis-use of a .22 Magnum for polar bear hunting), does not in any realistic way presented in this thread represent potential hazard to the mis-user or 'innocent bystanders' that hunting polar bears with a .22 Magnum does. Second, just as a rifle manufacturer isn't responsible for the use of their products they manufacture, (except of course in the minds of idiots), neither are swaging die manufacturers. The responsibility of an "expert" is to ADVISE, not POLICE. Bad advice due to ignorance (which begs the question of the appropriateness of the label "expert), is excusable. "No. You can't do that," or worse, "No, I forbid you to do that", or "No, that is unethical" (ptooey), is different matter altogether.

I am 'fine' with "We've made a business decision not to make "X" because it leads to too many headaches for us. However, if you are willing to jump through some extra hoops and settle for something less than 'send-a-rocket-to-mars' precision, you CAN do what you are asking to do." THAT is not what I was repeatedly told.

For those expressing the perspective of "I don't have the time, money, expertise, or access to do this, therefore I am willing to pay to have someone else provide the tools I need"; let me say I couldn't agree more! That is precisely where I started. However, after YEARS of frustration of not being ALLOWED to BUY what I wanted/needed, I decided to "fill my boots" and just do it myself. I am not a machinist by ANY stretch of imagination. I got tired of having to put up with 'taking' what someone else had decided was 'right' for me. I sold an ATV and all its 'accouterments' and purchased a mill and a lathe and taught myself to use them to make the firearms EYE wanted, not "settle" for what someone else wanted to sell me because it was "in stock" or "what we make". In the case of Dave Corbin, there is also the issue of "timing". I'm not a young man. "Absurd" falls far short of adequately describing what asking someone wait two years for something as simple as a set of dies is.

I don't criticize the current bullet swaging die manufacturers for their business decisions. I own my own business and know the compromises one has to make to operate a successful business. I DO criticize them for an unwillingness to HELP someone accomplish what that someone is trying to accomplish. I often hear a certain kind of "chest-thumping" that goes "Can't, isn't in my vocabulary." I can assure 'you' that "can't" is most certainly in my vocabulary, and I LISTEN to "experts" when they tell me I can't do something I want to do. BUT... and it is a HUGE "but": When they can't give me a GOOD, logical or mechanical reason WHY I can't do something, then start a 'tap-dance' and smoke-lowing routine, my eyes start to get squinty and I begin to question their motives AND the their assertions of "You can't do that".

Lotsa stuff I can't do. Swaging .51 caliber bullets on a reloading press isn't one of them.

Paul

[Prospector Howard]

This is good. I get what you're saying, gitano. In the past I and several other members that make their own dies have tried to encourage others to try it if they think they'd have the ability to do it. There have been quite a few threads started by members that said they were going to give it a shot and wanted advice on getting a lathe and such. It seems like every time, the person lost interest after the "experts" discouraged them from buying a lathe they could afford with advice that was way more technical than non machinists could grasp. Those "experts" did nothing but discourage those members from trying. I still remember one thread where one of those "experts" discouraged the person by stating that they were a person with massive experience, an engineer, and other such stuff; and then go on to say that even they wouldn't make there own dies and rely on the swaging die makers for their dies. How did that help anything? And if that person is such an expert, then try it yourself before you comment. It's just like anything I've ever done where the first tries are OK, but each set after; are better than the last as you gain experience, new tooling, and technique. Just getting started is the hardest part, and it doesn't help especially with people that have a vested interest discouraging the attempt with "you shouldn't try" or "that won't work", or "that lathe is junk, don't waste your money". Where would cain man, me, or forrest, or others be if we listened to that kind of "advice". Still waiting for a set of expensive dies I guess. I've even gone so far now as to supply select family and friends with .22lr to .223 dies when they've asked me nice enough. There is nothing like knowing you can make the dies yourself. And sometimes good is good enough, especially if we're not making bullets for a living, but for our own use. Also, I've never used a dedicated swage press either, and have never had a problem. Those bullets look pretty good to me, gitano. Good job.

[gitano]

I'm 'with' you Prospector Howard. I wanted this thread to be encouraging, not a philosophical discussion on the nuances of the appropriateness of advice from "experts". I would take some responsibility for that philosophical diversion, except that I felt it was necessary to point out the discouragement I consistently received from the mouths of "experts".

Old guy suggestions:
1) You will know them by their fruit.
2) YOU CAN DO IT!

Paul

[drinks]

I hope the people here know a small lathe is available for a very reasonable price and with a bit of practice and a good book or 2 can do marvelous things, including making dies, reamers and other , actually simple tools.
You do need to learn what metals are suitable for a specific purpose and , in some cases, to perform simple heat treatments.
I blush when I think back, I may have been one of the people who lead Gitano astray, aka , down the garden path of machining.
;>)

[mozeppa]

those who say "you can't do it!"

only try to get in the way of those who ARE doing it.

[gitano]

You do need to learn what metals are suitable for a specific purpose and , in some cases, to perform simple heat treatments.

That was only subtle to folks here at THL, Don.

You were certainly an 'encourager' as opposed to a discourager.

Paul

[drinks]

That was a generic statement, we all had to learn, somehow.
Of course, I have 12 years of age on you and started making little metal chips in 1959 about 50+ years before you did .
MAN, I am getting old.

[goblism]

he asks you if it's possible to kill a polar bear with any old 22 Magnum.

I had a native american guide up in Canada who used a 22 magnum to kill 30+ moose. He said he wouldn't suggest others to shoot moose with a 22 magnum but he would get within 10 yards and shoot the spine.


On-topic though I found this to be an interesting discussion. I have thought about buying a lathe and trying my hand at making dies. I also know that by the time I buy a lathe, fart around with learning to make dies on a lathe, go through making a flawed die or 20 I might just be better off buying my swage dies. Than again If I applied this logic to swaging bullets versus buying bullets I wouldn't be swaging either.

[aaronraad]

I can tell you exactly how I would respond to your hypothetical, aaronraad:

"Yes, you can hunt polar bear with a rifle chambered in .22 magnum. In fact, I know of a fellow in Nome that killed a brown bear with a .17 Remington. There are risks however. Since I am not responsible for what you do with my rifle after you take possession of it, I would be just fine with not only continuing making these rifles, but also selling them to you even if you were to tell me that you were going polar bear hunting with it. I am not responsible for you or what you decide to do with equipment or machinery you purchase from me."

In your scenario, I am apparently an "expert" in polar bear hunting because I make firearms chambered in .22 Magnum rifles.

Nope, read the text, 'expert or not' only refers to your ability to build and sell 22 Magnum rifles. I'm wondering if you also understand why I chose to include Inuit as part of the description then?

While logically fallacious, we can pursue this philosophical exercise taking that erroneous assumption at face value, and return to the issues specifically at hand, namely the manufacture and sale of bullet swaging dies.

First, the "mis-use" of bullet swaging dies (like the mis-use of a .22 Magnum for polar bear hunting

In your honest opinion then, because the Inuit were (and maybe still are) expert at hunting polar bear with rimfire and small calibre centrefires like the 222R.

), does not in any realistic way presented in this thread represent potential hazard to the mis-user or 'innocent bystanders' that hunting polar bears with a .22 Magnum does. Second, just as a rifle manufacturer isn't responsible for the use of their products they manufacture, (except of course in the minds of idiots), neither are swaging die manufacturers.

Actually my interpretation of the basic ITAR documents makes rifle manufactures quite responsible for their apparent use, swaging dies have't been included fortunately at this stage

The responsibility of an "expert" is to ADVISE, not POLICE. Bad advice due to ignorance (which begs the question of the appropriateness of the label "expert), is excusable. "No. You can't do that," or worse, "No, I forbid you to do that", or "No, that is unethical" (ptooey), is different matter altogether.

I am 'fine' with "We've made a business decision not to make "X" because it leads to too many headaches for us. However, if you are willing to jump through some extra hoops and settle for something less than 'send-a-rocket-to-mars' precision, you CAN do what you are asking to do." THAT is not what I was repeatedly told.

For those expressing the perspective of "I don't have the time, money, expertise, or access to do this, therefore I am willing to pay to have someone else provide the tools I need"; let me say I couldn't agree more! That is precisely where I started. However, after YEARS of frustration of not being ALLOWED to BUY what I wanted/needed, I decided to "fill my boots" and just do it myself. I am not a machinist by ANY stretch of imagination. I got tired of having to put up with 'taking' what someone else had decided was 'right' for me. I sold an ATV and all its 'accouterments' and purchased a mill and a lathe and taught myself to use them to make the firearms EYE wanted, not "settle" for what someone else wanted to sell me because it was "in stock" or "what we make". In the case of Dave Corbin, there is also the issue of "timing". I'm not a young man. "Absurd" falls far short of adequately describing what asking someone wait two years for something as simple as a set of dies is.

"ALLOWED" Seriously??? What you were asking for did not exist, so how can you buy something that does not exist. You make it sound like these businesses had units sitting on the shelf they were denying you. If you haven't noticed Dave Corbin's 'timing', much like others is strongly related to dollars, hence he offers a short turnaround time at the elevated price.

I don't criticize the current bullet swaging die manufacturers for their business decisions. I own my own business and know the compromises one has to make to operate a successful business. I DO criticize them for an unwillingness to HELP someone accomplish what that someone is trying to accomplish.

No sorry you can't have it both ways, their unwillingness to help was their business decision. Did you not approach them as a potential customer? Your criticism is so direct to the point where you identified four different suppliers, including your apparent decision not to buy from a commercial supplier anymore. This reads more like they rejected you, so now you're rejecting them if you want to be honest with yourself.

I often hear a certain kind of "chest-thumping" that goes "Can't, isn't in my vocabulary." I can assure 'you' that "can't" is most certainly in my vocabulary, and I LISTEN to "experts" when they tell me I can't do something I want to do. BUT... and it is a HUGE "but": When they can't give me a GOOD, logical or mechanical reason WHY I can't do something, then start a 'tap-dance' and smoke-lowing routine, my eyes start to get squinty and I begin to question their motives AND the their assertions of "You can't do that".

Lotsa stuff I can't do. Swaging .51 caliber bullets on a reloading press isn't one of them.

Paul

Clearly you have set out and achieved in your mind what others thought beyond your potential, their own or any other humans. Bashing the commercial suppliers because they (in your experience) denied the 'expert advice' let alone the non-existent product gets us where exactly? You claim to listen to experts, but as soon as they give you a response you do not understand or want to hear, your respect for them begins to fade. Is there any surprise then that you find yourself going it alone.

You claim a goal of encouragement through your post, but you do this at the discouragement of others. There are probably a few vendors working very hard to support the members on this forum, that are glad they did not appear on your list; should you have contacted them for expert advice on your project. Should I or others too, find fault with your level of expert at swaging .51 calibre bullets, simply because we question the motives behind your need to post on this sub-forum in the manner in which you did? I think not, because we need all the expert advice we can get when it comes to swaging at the moment, for she is a mistress known only unto herself...or so they might say.