.41 Magnum / 41 Special Load Data Center

[RJM52]

Just received an email stating my .41 Special brass has shipped and I should have it on the 4th...so they are ahead of schedule..

Bob

[GregP42]

Argh!!!! Ok bite the bullet time....

[kgb]

Any issues with crimping the Special brass? Does any particular make of crimper work better than the others, do any require machining to reach, is this a non problem.....?

[ddixie884]

RCBS will not crimp .41spl unless it is shortened. Lee, Dillon and Hornady will all adjust to crimp.

[GLynn41]

IMy RCBS will not crimp --but I have a Lee die set and it will crimp just fine-- so my .41 special is size and dprime... prime - charge --seat boolit-- then crimp said boolit

[kgb]

Was searching through all of the articles I've gathered on .41s over the years, and found the one I'd recalled mentioning use of the Speer 3/4 jacket HP. Author mentioned using that 200gr bullet on deer, and included a picture of it with a factory 175gr Silvertip. The Winchester at "182 paces" expanded as if from a textbook photo and the Speer round, from the old Blazer factory ammo which he claims ran just over 1200fps from a 4" S&W, just has a slightly distorted nose having taken a deer at "much shorter" range. I've used the HP and SP versions of these Speers on one deer each, the HP from a S&W and the SP from a Marlin, and both penetrated completely--no recovered projectile to examine. I recently gave a friend one each of the SP 220gr and Nosler HP to test with a hardness tester and he said both came in as pure or nearly pure lead.

Nothing to complain about the fact both the HP and SP versions of the Speer were effective in one shot each for me, but that barely-distorted Speer in the article doesn't seem right.




Another magazine with an article on .41s (Mike Venturino's non-magnum .41 loads in Handloader Aug-Sep 2006) has a column by Dave Scovill regarding Relative Stopping Power and he relates an instance of a flock of sheep needing to be destroyed. A guy named John Zemanek took the opportunity to test a variety of .357 and .44 bullets from long bbl'd handguns and in the case of the .44, through a Winchester M94. In the handguns (the rifle was only used with 300gr Speer and Hornady bullets), the best performers were the Speer 3/4 jacketed HPs, and XTP's in the standard 158gr and 240gr weights (no lighter XTP's listed; lighter bullets were JHP/JHC). Nothing about recovered bullets, although that's likely covered in the full description which is listed as being in Handloader's Sept-Oct 1991 issue.

Continuing the search for more information on the Speer 3/4 jacket performance, I found this from a S&W Forum http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloadi...46-gr-jhp.html . "Superman" claims "The reason these bullets don't expand very much is because of the hard alloy used in the core and the thick cup used as the jacket. These are basically jacketed Keith bullets that cut holes like a wadcutter in paper targets just like Keiths do. The nose, either the soft point or the hollow point "melts" off and what is left looks like a little ashcan that really penetrates." In the photo below the text is a 200gr HP .41 that looks to have acted like a Partition in shedding its nose with the rear half continuing penetration, intact from the jacket mouth back. Seems to have gotten it wrong about the hard alloy as it's apparent it's a soft lead that expanded and peeled off, but the penetration even with a good amount of the weight removed is apparently sufficient for deer hunting. Certainly not as much as you'd get from a harder SWC design that retains all/nearly all of its weight in terminal performance, but when a 240gr .41 SWC from Paco Kelly can penetrate a steer from the rear and break a front shoulder a bit less weight on a deer should be plenty.

[RJM52]

..."SuperMan"...that is me...

Could very well be that I got it wrong about the alloy used in the Speer bullets. I have a few boxes left and next time I am down at my friend's place casting I'll try and remember to bring some as he has a hardness tester.

A real shame that Speer dropped that bullet.

Bob

[kgb]

I should have noticed the use of jugs of water and boards!

It'll be a curious finding if yours don't come back at a similar rating. Either they'd have had varying production with these or the LBT tester's reliability (or use of it) would be in question. The quenched wheel weights castings I've made in my .41 molds have come in at 16 or higher when tested on the same device. I would expect little to no shear off with harder boolits, but your testing with HP'd Miha 170gr rounds shows enough deformation that, contained in a heavy cup like the Speer design they might wear down to the top of the cup no matter their hardness--at 1350fps.

[RJM52]

One must remember something about that "test".... That bullet was run through six gallon jugs of water and then it ran into a 3/4" piece of marine plywood. I don't exactly recall what happened next as it was a while ago but I am thinking that bullet then ran into a 4x4" post and sunk up to the base....or that is the one that stuck into the second piece of plywood I put up after whatever I shot first.

Since then I have standardized on one 1/2 gallon paper milk carton, 5 gallon jugs and then a stop jug that has a ballistic vest panel wrapped around it. I have no doubt however that bullet will make it all the way to the vest.

In doing a fingernail test I recall those bullets were much harder than pure led.

[RJM52]

To those who have not seen the posts on "real" Keith bullets it is a very interesting read. The original .410 Keith design had a .275" meplat as did the original .429 .44 bullet. Before he had his stroke Keith worked with a local policeman and the redesign increased the meplat to .310 for the .41 and .335 for the .44.

NEI made the original molds and one of the members here found two originals in .41 and .45. They and the .357 and .44 are now being run by NOE.

...figured one more mold can't hurt so I ordered one...

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloadi...ble-again.html

Bob

[kgb]

A batch of .41 Special brass sounds like a solid plan for the range of bullet designs that do not work in various .41 Mag revolvers. Just looked at the NOE "Real Keith" designs and see among the 4 calibers offered the .41 will make for the longest extension beyond case mouth of any, albeit just barely beating out the .44 design:
.45 sticks out .348" from case mouth to tip of nose,
.357 sticks out .360",
.44 extends .391" and
.41 extends .396".

The full caliber front driving band is also longest from the .41 and .44, although issues brought about by that aspect is solved in the same way as too great an OAL, by crimping over the front.

[GLynn41]

or by trimming the case --- I TOO have wrote those words "I want one" at NOE

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Just fyi https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/41-Special/

[kgb]

Too many cases to crank through the trimmer. My Specials are due here tomorrow!

[376Steyr]

My Starline brass arrived and I starting loading. First thing I discovered is this stuff was so clean that I could barely force it in and out of my Dillon carbide sizer. I ran a few cases over a Lyman M die expander and got my micrometer out and did some measuring of unsized cases versus the expanded ones. A fellow could maybe skip sizing and get adequate neck tension straight out of the box, but I decided to be conservative and size all the cases anyway. A touch of Imperial sizing wax on each case let me easily size them, followed by a trip through the vibrating tumbler, and I was back in business.
I dug out a box of 226 grain SWC, from a older group buy mould for the "41-200-Keith" done by NOE back in 2009-2010. I loaded them over 7.0 gr. of Unique with a Winchester LP primer and headed for the local shooting spot. I got there before the mud could thaw and set up a target at 25 yards. I loaded up my 4" S&W 657 and proceeded to shoot the best groups I've ever gotten with this gun. My shooting technique leaves much to be desired, but these groups were as good as I can hold with a 4" sixgun. I didn't set up a chrono, but I'll guess that these are traveling at 900+ fps. Recoil was snappy, but not punishing. I'm going to load up a bunch of this combination and call it good.

[RJM52]

7.0 grains of Unique is the same load I am using but with a group buy Lee 250 Keith. With a 200-230 7.0 in a Special case gives the same velocity as 8.0 in a Magnum case.

I've been working with the 265 grain GC mold that I bought from the guy on the Single-Action forums. Worked up to 22.0 grain of H110 in .41 Magnum brass but was getting a few flattened primers so back down to 21.0 grains.. Fired 15 test rounds the other day from a FA 654 and a custom Gary Reeder 5-shot Super Blackhawk and all looked good. For a S&W or standard 6 shot Ruger 20.0 would probably be better. Currently running 19.0 with a 300 grain and they shoot fine even out of the Smith...so you just gotta try each boolit design to see what works best.

Bob

[RJM52]

...to brighten every .41 Lovers Day....

http://singleactions.proboards.com/t...hot-41-special

[41special]

Was searching through all of the articles I've gathered on .41s over the years, and found the one I'd recalled mentioning use of the Speer 3/4 jacket HP. Author mentioned using that 200gr bullet on deer, and included a picture of it with a factory 175gr Silvertip. The Winchester at "182 paces" expanded as if from a textbook photo and the Speer round, from the old Blazer factory ammo which he claims ran just over 1200fps from a 4" S&W, just has a slightly distorted nose having taken a deer at "much shorter" range.

Kgb, well that's disappointing.

That Speer bullet (in HP or SP) was my 1st choice loading my .41 special for years. My thinking was the lead was dead soft & could be counted on to expand into a perfect mushroom at even low impact velocities. With the copper cup protecting the bore from leading. The silvertip looks 100% better!

Thanks so much for posting this information.



41

[RJM52]

Has anyone ever seen .41/175 grain Silvertip bullets for sale as a reloading component? I have seen .44s and .357s but never .41s... Sierra makes an excellent 170 grain JHC for reloading and at one time Remington made 170 and 200 grain JHP ammunition and components.

[GLynn41]

those Remington's were really hot -- with a huge muzzle blast- extracted just fine- fun --as long as hearing protected -- nice six gun