Quality Of Armi Sharps And Iab Sharps Kits?

[willdixon]

Gentlemen:

I have a long lifetime of experience with firearms, but am brand new with the Sharps, so please forgive my ignorance.

But I want to buy a new Sharps of the Quigley persuasion solely for long range benchrest competition and plinking. A 45/110 will do, but I'd prefer a 50/90. So my TWO question are:

1. Can any of you give me really valid first hand information about the quality of the ARMI sharps rifles, again preferably the 50/90? AND....

2. Can any of you give me any solid information about the IAB SHARPS RIFLE KITS? I love working steel, and would enjoy the kit, but the metal in the photos APPEARS to not have been heat treated in any fashion. And that would be a whole bunch of homework!

Thank you very much.

[45nut]

Welcome to CB , I cant help you with your questions but I will move the topic to where you will get some answers.

[waksupi]

I don't know about the kits. But, I do know it costs around $90-100 to get a reciever heat treated.

Welcome aboard!

[willdixon]

Thank you very much, Waksupi, for the welcome and for the information.

Fortunately, I am an amateru knifesmith, and I can heat treat all the parts other than the barrel here at home. But a barrel is a whole different ball of wax, and I would have a tough time with it.

[waksupi]

You shouldn't need to heat treat a barrel. I can't imagine any company sending out barrels, that weren't of the proper steel. Too big of a liability! We go through hundreds of barrels a year, all cold turned. This is standard with every maker I know of.

There may be others chime in on this. Right off hand, I don't recall anyone here working with the kits before, but who knows?

[Don McDowell]

Quality can be spotty on the Armi sport guns. There shouldn't be any need to heat treat the action as the Italian government makes the manufactures submit each gun to the government proof house before it can be sold.

For the 1000 yd competition I think you'ld be better off with the 45-110 , than the 50-90. Better selection of good long range bullets in the 45's, the amount of powder burned is negligible, and the cost of brass from Starline isn't enough difference to worry about.
Before buying one of the Italian guns it would certainly be worth your time to comparison shop CSharps and Shiloh.

[Knarley]

I still own one.These guns are barley fair at best. The wood to steel finish of 1-10 I would give a 4. The inner workings look like they were marked out with a thick piece of chalk and cut out with an axe.
The first one was returned because I needed a ramrod to knock the case back out of the gun after being fired. The second one that I still have, the chamber is supposed to be 45-70, but it is about 1/4 inch long. Between the stock and tang one can slide a toothpick through, daylight!!! After firing a number of times, that fippy-do saftey thingy broke and fell off. BUT the sucker shoots straight,go figure. I would rate this gun as horse poop, but it shoots straight, my sweetie likes it and has named it "Crazy Corra" after the gal in Quigley Down Under. In fact I'm going to use it to bear hunt later this spring. I can't recomend this gun, but I can't condemn it either. I wish that I could be of more help, but I'm being as honest as I can.
Good luck in your endevers,
Knarley

[Black Prince]

WELCOME Will Dixon. We are happy to have you here and we ain't proud, so jiss jump on in here.

I have an Armi Sports (Imported by Taylor in Virginia) Sharps 1874 replica chambered for 45-70 and have been more than happy with it. I shoot it in NRA silloutte matches and do as well as any of the other shooters and some of those guys have high dollar rifles. I did manage to break a firing pin, but since it is a Sharps, and since I always have a couple of extra pins when shooting a Sharps, I fixed it with one small flat head screw driver in about two minutes right at the range. That was three years ago and I've not broken another pin since.

I have not used or seen used an IAB Sharps kit built rifle, but I have seen their completed rifles at matches. They look pretty good, but not up to Pedersolli or Armi Sports (Taylor) standards. The case colors are muddy and some flats are rounded and the wood ain't the best grade. They do seem to shoot well however, and I have not observed anyone complain about them where I've shot. I have heard some complaints however, but you never know about such things unless you have first hand experience, and I don't. I just spend a little extra and get a better grade rifle to begin with. I figer you get what you pay for.

You say that you are an experienced shooter, but new to Sharps shooting. Well now pard, If you ain't never shot 40 rounds like what is required in NRA silloutte matches, or even more rounds in other types of matches, you may want to THINK about trying that before you lay out serious dough for a 50-90, or even a 45-110 for that matter. A 50-90 shooting an adequate bullet at adequate velocity is gonna ring yer chimes after about 40 rounds and so will a 45-110. Any time your rifle caliber begins with a four, and for dam sure when it begins with a five, you have a serious rifle, and it is gonna give you some serious recoil. That is easy to take for ten rounds or so, but when you are required to shoot 40 or more, it begins to be a lot like work.

If I wuz you, unless your experience with other rifles has been with big bores, you may wanna think about your choice of calibers and cartridges sum more. A 45-70 is about all most people want to strap on for 40 rounds, especially when you shoot from prone position. If you wanna bull ride, then bow up, give'm hell, and get a 50-90. But ya better not be a Coke ah Cola cowboy cause that is a real rifle and if you ain't up to ridin' it for the required number of shots in a match, it'll ride you.

We'll help you work up some loads for it. Let us know what you decide on.

[Boz330]

Will, if you want a rifle to work on, the IAB is your baby. The barrels seem to be very smooth and they don't shoot bad. Internal parts are rough and need a lot of work. My buddy spent 200 bucks getting the breech block square on his when he tried to rebarrel it. Seems the barrel was filed at the factory to fit properly to the block, instead of making the block straight. Some of the chambers that I have seen are way oversize and look like they were cut with a dull drill.
As BP pointed out the recoil in an extended match can get to you, and the IAB is not a heavy rifle to start with. I shoot a 40-65 and even that starts to get to me at the end of a long string of fire.
Not trying to diss the Italian made guns, but with the exchange rate right now the Montana guns are a bargain and customer service is a phone call away.
As other folks have pointed out the 45-70 is a good start and if you feel the need you can always rechamber for a bigger case. With some of the 45 borerider designed boolits you can get almost as much powder in the 45-70 case as a
45-90.

Bob

[calaloo]

Not even considering the exchange rate, if you like quality you would be better off with an American made reproduction. C. Sharps, Shiloh, and others all make rifles that are better and better looking than thier spagetti counterparts. If you buy Italian (with the possibility exception of Pedersoli) it is a crap shoot. You might get a good one but probably wont...experiance talking here. I've spent enough money trying to get an Italian copy to shoot accurately that I could have bought American. Subscribe to The Single Shot Exchange and The Black Powder Cartridge News and learn all you can. Just my 2 cents worth.

Bill

[montana_charlie]

After firing a number of times, that fippy-do saftey thingy broke and fell off.

I'd be leary of buying any Sharps pattern rifle that the flippy-do safety thingy could break and fall off of...because I can't imagine what the flippy-do safety thingy might be.

The only 'safety' I know of on a Sharps is the half-cock notch...and if THAT falls off you have a real problem...

Could it be that Knarley lost his fly?
CM

[willdixon]

Hi Bill -

Thank you very much for the great help.

There's a problem, however, for my buying American: (a) I just don't really have time to wait around a couple of years for a Shilo. And I would not want an Axtell, because their web site says their ". . . big calibers such as 45/110, 120 and 140 are not recommended. They are not very accurate. . . ." And I specifically want either a 45/110 or a 50/90. But when the rifle maker himself thinks those calibers are not accurate, I would not want one of his. And I haven't decided yet about C. Sharps.

Anyway - your thoughts are a great help - thank you very much.

Gene

[Don McDowell]

It not always necessary to wait for a Shilo, sometimes they have one ready that no one has spoke for yet.
C Sharps has an available list of rifles they have built and ready to go. If they don't have something just as you want it, they say its about 60-90 days to build one. The 75 model I got last December was 30 days from ordering to shooting.

If you're serious about getting into the long range stuff the last thing you need to have going in the back of your mind is the quality of your rifle. I shot my Armi Sport for a lot of rounds and did alright , but when things started breaking and Taylors aren't exactly real helpful in getting parts out to you.......

You can always start with a 45-70 it will do fine to 1000 yds, get your feet wet and see just what you might want to change, and then that rifle is only a few quick twists of the reamer to a longer case if that's what you want. Starting with one of the long ones the only way to shorten up is rebarreling and that's not cheap.

[13Echo]

Axtel makes as well made a Sharps as you'll find from Shiloh or C Sharps. I personally think the 1877 they make is the more handsome rifle. They are also telling you like it is. The .45-110 can be made to shoot but it isn't necessarily easy. The .45-120 and the .45-140 just aren't target rifle cartridges and don't give enough extra performance to make them worthwhile for hunting (my opinion). What they do provide is more recoil, much worse fouling, and a lot more expense. If you'll look at the match results you won't find anyone having success with anything larger than the 45-110 and that almost entirely for long range shooting. The 50-90 does fine and can be very accurate but as a target rifle it will hurt you. Great for large game and light armored vehicles though.

Jerry Liles

[Boz330]

I'd be leary of buying any Sharps pattern rifle that the flippy-do safety thingy could break and fall off of...because I can't imagine what the flippy-do safety thingy might be.

The only 'safety' I know of on a Sharps is the half-cock notch...and if THAT falls off you have a real problem...

Could it be that Knarley lost his fly?
CM

Charlie,
He is not talking about the fly. The IAB has a, for the lack of a better word, a flippy do that blocks the hammer from impacting the firing pin. This thing is mounted to the breech block and when the block is lowered for loading it is automatically engaged. You haave to manually flip it to the side to keep it from blocking the hammer. Problem is that there is no detent or spring to keep it out of the way. If you brush it with anything it engages it again. My buddy lost a deer when his was accidentally re-engaged. He said that the sound of that hammer hitting the safety is instant afterburner lighting of a deer leaving Dodge impulse.
Gene,
C-Sharps stuff is quality and the wait is a little more reasonable. There is also ways to get a Shilo quicker but you will have to pay a small premium.

Bob

[willdixon]

Thank you guys for all your great help!

And one at a time:

Waksupi and Don:

Look at the steel parts in the IAB Sharps kits at http://www.iabarms.com/new.html They have not been heat treated at all, neither the barrel nor action. If the action had been case hardened, it would be a mottled blue/gray/green, and if the barrel had been heat treated it would be a blue color, unless they intentionally browned it. These are raw steel. And, as a lawyer myself, these Italian folks would not be too afraid of liability suits from America - jurisdiction and venue would make an American suit almost impossible. And yes, they're supposed to submit each rifle to a proof house, but there is nothing in their law saying they have to submit rifle PARTS to the proof house. And these kits contain only parts. I guess I'll take a pass on the kits, unless I can get better information on them. I wrote to IAB, but got no reply.

Knarly (good harley term!):

Thank you very much! Your information is exactly what I had hoped to learn.

Hi Black Prince -

Your information is also very helpful indeed!

But as to my staying away from Recoil, that's not a problem. I used to do a lot of shooting out of a .460 Weatherby Magnum, and ANY MAN OF ANY SIZE firing it five times in a row will have a beautiful big purple subdural hematoma the next morning. Worst of all, as I guess you know, the bigger a man is the more pain he suffers from recoil. The little guys just bounce back with the recoil. Big guys don't. And I'm 6' 2" and weight 220 pounds. But I can handle the recoil, trust me. And I won't be doing any 40 round runs at one time. I'm only interested in long distance, 1,000 yard shooting. But thank you very much!

BOZ330 - Bob -

Thank you very much!

And I'm writing off IAB on the basis of your observations.

I've owned two 45/70s, and loved them, but now I've got my heart set on a 45/110 or 50/90 - even if I don't shoot often and even if it recoils. I doubt, however, theat either of those will exceed my old .460 Weatherby Magnum.

Hi Calaloo -

Thanks for your help, and yes - after reading all this wisdom - I'm going to stick only with a Pedersoli or a C. Sharps. Thank you very much! And yes, I have subscribed to Black Powder Cartridge News and Single shot Exchange, and I've already gotten one of them in the mail.

Montana Charlie - thank you very much. All of you guys have told me exactly what I needed to know. I can't tell you how much I appreciate your help!

If ANY of you are ever headed this Mayo, Florida, way - come see me!

Gene

[willdixon]

Thank you very much Don!

I'll talk to C. Sharps, and see what they say.

But I've already had to trapdoor 45/70s way back when you could buy them for nothing - when I was in high school. And I loved mine, but now I just want the 45/110 or the 50/90.

But thank you very much indeed for your kind help!

Gene

[Don McDowell]

Gene glad to be of some help.
Your timing on this one is just a bit bad. Quite a number of the longrange shooters like Kenney Wasserburger and other 110 nuts are in Pheonix at the Americas Cup Creedmore shoot. Those guys could really give you the straight skinny.
Matter of fact the thing is at the Ben Avery shooting complex, and if you google that up you should be able to find some of the equipment lists etc.
Also might want to pm that cratchity ol Crossfire here. He's been know to work on a couple of those guns from time to time, and rumor has it he's penned a couple ditties for the SSE magazine on occasion.

[Knarley]

I also own a Pedersoli NRA Qugiley. I LOVE THIS GUN. The fit and finish is superb, the innerds are like a fine swiss watch. It shoots better than it looks! heck it shoots better than I can. I got mine from Cabellas and have NO complaints. Do your self a favore, spend a tad bit more for a really good gun, they are a tool, and one never buys tools off the .39 cent bins unless you're gonna use it once and throw it away. IMHO, My Dad taught me well...
I hope this helps, I know what it's like when you got your sights set on a gun, it sucks, but ease into this TAKE TIME AND THINK!!! You CAN do better,and in the long run,heck, you'll be better off, trust me on that one.
Glad to have been some if any help, hope to hear from you agin no matter what you decide, we will talk again,promise.
Knarley

[Blkpwdrbuff]

Willdixon, IAB stands for IT"S ALWAYS BROKE!!!!!
I have had one and it's now for sale. I have has the springs replaced and polished, the locks replaced 3 times and finally hardened. As far as getting parts, it's always a guess.
I emailed IAB several times with no satisfactory results. Finally the red monster in me came out and I emailed Maro Pedretti personally and told him what a piece of junk they are.
That got a reply, but still no help. I also told him word of mouth was the best advertisement available, either good or bad. Still no results!!!
Stay away from them. The Pedersolis are good, but most of the Shilos and C.Sharps are heads above.
Hope this helps,
Blkpwdrbuff