Another Mosin Nagant question.

[x_man586]

I slugged the barrels on the two Mosin Nagant rifles I own. A 91/30 and a M44. The M44 slugged out to be .314 no problems. The 91/30 slugged out to .3145. The problem is that after I got 3 or so inches down the bore the slug started to feel loose. I could move it down the barrel without the hammer. When I got close to the chamber it tightened up again. I can get 4" groups with Czech silver tip at 100 yards. What is the reason for the bore opening up a little halfway down? What kind of issues will I run into shooting cast boolets. I am looking at montanabulletworks.com .311-.314 Linotype gas checked bullets. Thanks for the help.

[leebuilder]

Hi xman586 no idea about you 91/30 other than it is russian, i have seen this before what caused it is anyones guess only Ivan can say. I seen ones with dings the reduced enough that a brush would stop dead. As for accuracy with cast, you will have to try it and see, i think you will be fine, go slightly oversize and try. Look for leading.
be safe.

[x_man586]

Thanks I'm not new to casting but am new to casting for surplus rifles. Another question. I have half a pound of unique which I hear is great for cast 7.62x54 but I would rather use the v n-140 that I have 8lbs of. If I use a hard enough boolit can I start at the low side of a jacketed load for the same weight?.

[pworley1]

Most mosins have rough dark bores. You might try fire lapping the 91 30.

[jugulater]

i have a number of military rifles with similar manufacturing defects. my 1891 argentine seems to have a tapper in the barrel, it gets tighter as you go closer to the muzzle. but man does it shoot nice consistent groups at 100 yards with the NOE copy of the 314299.

my thoughts here are that the loosness shouldnt effect much due to it being for most of the barrel , but the tight spot in front of the chamber my prove to be problematic.

i think i heard somewhere before that tight spots in front of the chamber my be caused by leading build up or copper fouling? If its not a fouling problem firelapping may be necessary to remove the tight spot.

[LAGS]

I would suspect that you have some pitting at both ends of the barrel.
Near the muzzle would be from exposure to the elements, and in front of the chamber from corrosive primers and lack of proper cleaning..
Polish the bore with JB Bore Bright or Fire lap the barrel.
It will make it better, but not perfect.
I have found the exact same conditions on lots of my MN's.
Cutting 3" off the end of the barrel and recrowning it, helps if you want to customize your rifle.
The rifle after polishing up a bit will shoot cast bullets just fine.

[GhostHawk]

One of my pair of Mosin's did much like the OP described. Constrictions at the front sight, rear sight, looser between.

The other one was more consistent throughout. Both shoot about the same.

Both of mine cleaned up very nicely over time shooting cast. They were both dark gray in the grooves, light gray on the lands.
All shiny as mirrors now.

[x_man586]

Cool guys. Knowing that it is not a bore diameter issue and most likely both ends of the barrel are just rough and thus more restrictive makes me feel better. Knowing that I have a couple of ways of correcting the problem.

[x_man586]

Thanks for that. What to y'all think of adapting a jacketed bullet load with vihtavouri n140 to work with a hard 180 grain cb?

[GhostHawk]

X-man, IMO, yes, but use some common sense. Don't start at max, start at start loads and walk the ladder up till you see accuracy.

Don't use a heavier bullet without lowering powder charge. Common sense really. Be careful, make notes, load a few, shoot, load a few more.

I have not personally used any of the Vihtavouri powders as I have no history with them and was always able to find stuff that I knew would work, like IMR 4350, 3031, and 4895.

[jugulater]

well, I hadn't thought of pitting causing a tight spot but it sure does make sense. really explains the tightness infront of the chamber. not so much tight as just friction caused by a rough spot.

[x_man586]

So my bore slugged at .3145. The steel cases I just fired have an I.D. Of .3125. So does that mean a .314 gas checked cast boolit won't fit?

[jugulater]

i just measured a steel and a brass case both fired from my 36 tula. the steel measures .312 as well, but the brass one measures .315.

i use the NOE version of the 314299 in both of my guns without issue. if only you could get your hands on some .314 boolits and make up some dummy rounds for testing.

[x_man586]

Yes! that is what I was hoping. The brass being softer is able to fully expand. I will have to buy some brass ammo(since I can't get any empty brass) and see what they expand to.

[WRideout]

Thanks for that. What to y'all think of adapting a jacketed bullet load with vihtavouri n140 to work with a hard 180 grain cb?

With some milsurps, you just can't find published cast boolit loads; I have several times used load data for jacketed, when I couldn't find anything else. Using a slower powder gives you a little more margin against pressure spikes. I would use something like IMR 4198 before I would use Bullseye. Start at the bottom, and look for pressure signs as you work up your load. I have also worked up loads using data from similar size cases; i.e. .308 win vs 7.5 swiss. I always start at the LOW end.
Wayne

[x_man586]

Thanks. My biggest issue is finding powder. But normally I am looking for pistol powder.

[truckjohn]

Realistically - most surplus ammo is pretty hit or miss on accuracy... The stuff was not designed as "Match" ammo... It was not shot as match ammo... My average results with Surplus runs somewhere around 4".....

So... 4" with Czech silver tip... Sounds about on par with my typical "Surplus" experience...

If you can do it - try out Hornady steel match 7.62x54r... How does that stuff shoot? My experience is that in properly set up and regulated Mosins with good barrels - that stuff is the best commercial ammo commonly available in the USA.

The only non-reload ammo I have shot that consistently bests it is the bona-fide Russian "Extra" National Match ammo... (Not the junk that Wolf, Brown Bear, S&B, or Silver bear call "Extra")... That stuff is amazingly accurate and shoots consistently better in 100% of Mosins I have tried it in than anything but rifle specific handloads... It's the equivalent of "USGI Match" for Mosin Nagant rifles.... But.. it's real hard to find..

Thanks

[Motor]

Hey Wayne, my favorite load uses Bullseye. It's sub-sonic though.

Motor

[Josh Smith]

Hello,

I've been reading reports that the sniper 91/30s largely had (mistakenly) coned barrels, sort of squeeze-bore style. I've not confirmed this independently, but it does make sense.

If you look at a lot of the surplus, it has hollow bases like minie balls or airgun pellets. These help with loose rifling.

I still have to cast for the 91/30. I'm thinking a 200 grain or so bullet would be great for a lot of applications. Remember, the rifling is 1:9.5" and the rifle was originally designed for a 212-grain bullet at 2000fps or so. 1908 saw the introduction of the current light ball as the Russians followed what the Germans did in 1905. (The Germans subsequently went back to a heavier ball round, the 7.92x57iis, but the Russians stayed with the light ball.)

I would personally go with the neck size on the cast bullet, and play with hardness from there out.

Regards,

Josh

[x_man586]

I am first going to work on the rifle then work on the ammo. I just installed a mojo rear sight and am gathering the stuff to bed and shim the barrel/action.