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Thread: 7.62x25 as self defense round

  1. #21
    Boolit Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Well I don't CC, but I do keep my CZ-52 with the slide locked back and a full mag in it, ready to go. It is tucked between my side of the couch and my table, out of sight. I don't expect I'll ever need to use it, but if I do, it is there, ready. One quick jerk on the slide and it is ready to go.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master JHeath's Avatar
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    I'm okay with the Tok half-cock, which is really a 1/5th cock. I haven't drop tested it, but looking at the relative angles the rear of the frame/slide covers the hammer spur from a "forward" blow. If the pistol were to fall on the hammer spur at an angle, the force would be "downward" and I don't think the sear or notch would fail in compression. I think the sear pin would have to fail in shear for the hammer to budge, and the angles make this unlikely. All in all I think the half-cock safety is probably as good as carrying a 1911 on full-cock, where a straight drop will try to drive the hammer forward, and puts the sear tips themselves in shear.

    Basically a fully cocked SA auto pistol is "energized", and only the sear tips are preventing a discharge (excepting new models with firing pin blocks). Their safeties simply hold the sear in the shallow hammer full-cock notches.

    By contrast, a Tok on 1/5th-cock is not "energized", and the hammer is held back by a deep notch and the full length of the sear, both of which would be in compression (not shear) if the pistol is dropped on the hammer on a flat surface.

    I've asked before if anybody knows any different, for a fact. Nobody has spoken up so far.

    The non-inertial firing pin would discharge if dropped on the muzzle. But the half-cock holds the slide shut via the disconnector, so the bullet would go into the concrete and the pistol wouldn't cycle.

    Yes the 7.62x25 is pretty close to the 327 if loaded with heavier bullets. Older 7.62x25 loading data had 110 j-words at 1688fps.

    That 7.62x25 data is no longer published because CZ-52s have a weak spot for the roller cutout, and their hardening is inconsistent.

    Tokarev strength is not an issue. Clark's 9x23 Win conversions were absorbing loads greatly in excess of .357 mag max loads, with 158s.

    Toks are tricky to load for, because the bores are oversize. If you stuff a .313 boolit in a case, it likely won't chamber. I'm dealing with that now, and will probably ream my chamber neck to eliminate turning case necks.

    Yes they fling brass. Look at the ejector lug -- it's really long. I'm sure it could be filed back -- carefully -- in small increments -- and presumably not throw brass so far. It's on my list.

    In fact, the ejector lug is so long that it's sometimes difficult to ease loaded cartridges out of the chamber. The ejector is trying to flip the case while the bullet is still well inside the ejector port. I have to pull sharply to unload mine.

    Triggers are not fine instruments but somewhat tuneable. Not sure if it's possible to eliminate the long take-up, but they can be lightened.

    Mine has been a back-burnered project and I'm not sure about accuracy potential. Hickock45 is doing okay for practical accuracy: http://youtu.be/aQtbNzyO0cE

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    JHeath, I did a quickie trigger job on my 9mm Tokarev, just reduce and polish the sear contact, tweak the overpowered trigger return spring, and if you like, substitute a lighter hammer spring. Mine with the lighter hammer spring is set at 3.5 pounds, and nicely crisp, my brothers Norinco Tokarev retains the full power main spring, and is just over 4 pounds. Neither was a maximum effort trigger job, just an hour or so of tinkering on each. It makes shooting them much easier.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master JHeath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dubber123 View Post
    JHeath, I did a quickie trigger job on my 9mm Tokarev, just reduce and polish the sear contact, tweak the overpowered trigger return spring, and if you like, substitute a lighter hammer spring. Mine with the lighter hammer spring is set at 3.5 pounds, and nicely crisp, my brothers Norinco Tokarev retains the full power main spring, and is just over 4 pounds. Neither was a maximum effort trigger job, just an hour or so of tinkering on each. It makes shooting them much easier.
    Cool, thanks. I reduced sear contact but was probably overcautious with engagement angle. Great to hear your results, 3.5lbs is as good as I would want.

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostHawk View Post
    Well I don't CC, but I do keep my CZ-52 with the slide locked back and a full mag in it, ready to go. It is tucked between my side of the couch and my table, out of sight. I don't expect I'll ever need to use it, but if I do, it is there, ready. One quick jerk on the slide and it is ready to go.
    I don't keep a loaded CZ-52 around but I would be comfortable with one loaded with a round in the chamber and the hammer dropped by the safety once you check it for proper function. The CZ has a firing pin block that prevents the firing pin from moving unless the trigger is pulled. Cocked and locked is good with the CZ as well. I like bigger bullets so I have 9mm barrels for my CZ and load my like a 9 x 25 in 9 x 23 brass. Close to 125 gr. .357 mag loads.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

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    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  6. #26
    Boolit Master Dan Cash's Avatar
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    My CZ52 lays in a desk drawer, close to hand as I type. It is loaded with a 105 grain cast RNFP from an accurate mould that was ordered to feed .32-20s. Once seating depth was established, a light charge of Unique was applied and fired, then increased until the pistol would cycle then increased slightly. The load chronographs at a little over 1200, is reasonabley accurate, does not lead or send brass into orbit. The same load works well in my C96 Mauser with new Wolf springs.

    I have not shot anything but paper and steel with these pistols but the same bullet in my .32-20s makes an awfull wound in a porcupine. At close range, I would not hesitate to use the pistol for self defense and expect reasonable results. Remember, though, that the Thompson, LaGuard tests in early 1900 found the caliber (.30 Mauser) somewhat wanting compared to .45 caliber cartridges.
    To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, the trouble with many shooting experts is not that they're ignorant; its just that they know so much that isn't so.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master roverboy's Avatar
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    I don't see why it wouldn't work good with a JHP loaded fast. Or, for the cast guys, a cast flat point loaded a little speedy.
    Mrs. Hogwallop up and R-U-N-N-O-F-T.

  8. #28
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    There is a huge difference between ball ammo of any caliber and properly stoked hollowpoints or wide meplat cast boolits.
    I Cast my Boolits, Therefore I am Happy.
    Bona Fide member of the Jeff Brown Hunt Club

  9. #29
    Boolit Mold CNTSHOOTSTRT's Avatar
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    The Tokarev makes an excellent EDC round, as long as you reload. As far as excellent SD bullets Hornady makes a 90 grain XTP (part # 31000) or Lee makes a nice bullet mold (311 and 100 or 110 grain round nose). If you use a wheelweight or similar hardness lead and powdercoat them you have a very nice hard hitting round that will drive deep and also expand. (The following is for the tt variants only, DO NOT run these through a CZ rolling block pistol). With Accurate AAC-9 I am getting right around 1800fps on my chrono with no signs of pressure. I am not going to put the weight of my loads on here but if you PM me I can help you out.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Good article on the 7.62x25 in The Fouling Shot, cost-posted here by permission:

    Feeding the Пистолет браконьера (Pistolet brakon'year) “Poacher’s pistol;” Tokarev TT33 in 7.62x25mm

    C.E. “Ed” Harris

    In FS 214-11 I described my introduction to the 7.62x25 cartridge, then firing it in a surplus Czech Cz52. To complete my education, I felt it necessary to test fire also the most common service pistol in this caliber. The TT33 was the principal service pistol issued by the Soviet Red Army during WW2. Based upon Fedor Tokarev’s earlier TT30, its alpha-numeric designators signify the name of its designer (Tokarev), developing arsenal (Tula) and year of introduction.

    After evaluating 1000 TT30s in troop trials, the Red Army recommended changes embodied in the TT33. These included machining cartridge guides directly into the receiver to positioning finger extensions of the trigger group to improve feeding, modification of Browning’s swinging link, having the locking rings encircle the barrel to simplify manufacture, and incorporating the hammer and lock work into a removable sub-assembly to ease cleaning and repair.

    Modern evaluators feel that a significant drawback to the TT33 was its lack of a positive mechanical safety. Red Army practice was to almost always carry the pistol with its chamber empty. If contact with the enemy was imminent, the chamber could be loaded. Then the user would depend upon the half-cock safety. Wear or damage to the half-cock notch of the hammer could cause a negligent discharge if the pistol was jolted or dropped. A high incidence of suspected ”self-inflicted” injuries with TT pistols caused Soviet investigators to be trained how to distinguish “real” from “staged” negligent discharges at a crime scene. This provided “zampolit” or "political officers" sufficient flexibility to purge “disloyal” personnel, their decision meaning the difference between a subject either being proclaimed a Hero of the Soviet Union, getting sent to the Gulag or being awarded with a bullet to the back of the head. This explains the affection which shrewd NCOs expressed in Orthodox reverence and preference for the, trustworthy наган (revolver)!

    While intended to replace the M1895 Nagant revolver, the Tokarev never completely did so during WW2. Red Army practice was to issue Tokarevs to Army officers in front line units and to make Nagant revolvers more readily available to “loyal” soldiers as rewards, and as badges of authority to NCOs, political officers, police and Communist Party officials.

    Over 1.7 million TT33s were produced by Soviet arsenals before production ceased in 1954. Variants of the TT33 were produced in Poland, Yugoslavia, Romania and China well into the 1980s. The total output of pistols from all satellite countries exceeded 3 million. Tokarev pistols remain in service in countries under Russian influence and with Russian para military units to this day. The TT is often presented in Russia as an award for distinguished service. It is still carried by court bailiffs, couriers, bank guards, delivery and security services. Its ubiquity makes it especially popular among criminals and poachers.

    The 7.62x25 Russian cartridge was adapted by the Soviets from the earlier M1896 7.63mm Mauser round. The first form of this cartridge appeared in 1893 for the Borchardt self-loading pistol. The same cartridge case loaded to higher pressure and velocity became the 7.63 mm Mauser Model 1896, which earned its worldwide reputation during the Great War of 1914-1918. The Bolsheviks were particularly impressed by its astounding penetration, flat trajectory and long-range hitting capability, when used in the M96 Mauser “Broomhandle” pistol.

    In 1930, the Soviet Union adopted the Mauser cartridge, under the designation 7.62 mm Type P, for the Tokarev TT-30 and TT-33 automatic pistols, and later for the PPD-40, PPSh-41, and PPS-43 submachineguns. Besides FMJ ball cartridges, API and tracer rounds were loaded by the Soviets during WW2 for submachinegun use. Bullet diameter was .307-.309” and weight 85-88 grains. W.H. B. Smith lists Russian P-Ball at 1378 fps from the TT33 Tokarev pistol, based upon the Soviet Red Army specification of 420 +/- 10 m/s. The US Army Foreign Science and Technology Center, Small Caliber Ammunition guide lists USSR “P Ball” as 500 m/sec (1,640 ft/sec) from the 25cm (9.8”) barrel of the PPSh-41 and 550 m/sec (1,805 ft/sec) from the 28 cm (11”) barrel of the PPSh43. This agrees with modern tests of surplus ammo.

    Hatcher's Textbook of Pistols and Revolvers (1935) described the 7.63 Mauser as developing 1300 fps. This was based upon US commercial ammunition loaded to a maximum average pressure of 29,000 psi. WW1 and WW2 German military loads approached 1400 fps from the Mauser M96 with 5.5-inch (14cm) barrel, according to contemporary sources. Hatcher stated that their penetration was eleven 7/8" pine boards, versus 5 boards for the .32-20 Winchester, .32 ACP, .38 Special and .45 Colt. The .45 ACP and .44-40 each penetrated 8 boards while the .38/.44 High Velocity, 9mm Luger, and .38 Colt Auto did nine. Only the .38 Super and .357 Magnum matched the Mauser's ELEVEN boards.

    While dimensionally similar, the Tokarev cartridge has a shorter neck and operates at higher chamber pressure, than CIP specifications for the 7.63 Mauser, (36,250 vs. 30,600 psi.) WW2-era and later Soviet "burp gun ammo" is too hot to fire in the “Broomhandle.” Doing so is like feeding the old girl a steady diet of proof loads!

    Yugo Privi Parisan (PPU) 7.62x25mm ammo I used in testing approximates Red Army service ballistics, about 1400 fps. Starline warns hand loaders not to use .30 Mauser brass in a Tokarev. This is because its 0.03” longer neck impinges against the origin of rifling in the shorter Tokarev chamber, spiking pressure and tearing case mouths off! Bill Brophy told me many years ago that 7.63 Mauser ammo ran OK in battlefield pickup PPSh41 “burp guns” thanks to sloppy wartime tolerances, when he tested captured Chicom weapons and ammunition in Korea while with the US Army.

    Both the Czech and Russian pistol designs are entirely suitable for 7.62x25 loads at loaded to full MAP and are quite strong enough for any sensible load. Sound CZ52, Tokarev and Combloc copies are quite safe with military surplus and commercial ammunition, including the Czech Sellier & Bellot, which in my chronograph tests approaches 1700 fps fired in the Cz52 with 4.7-inch barrel.

    In previous testing PPU (Yugo Privi Partisan)FMJ ammo shot to point of aim from my Cz52 at 25 yards. An average of ten 8-shot groups averaged 3.5 inches, with the largest group 4.6" and the smallest 2.9" This is fairly typical accuracy for fixed sight military handguns firing service ammunition. PPU ammo chronographed 1414 fps in my Cz52 and 1421 fps in the TT33. I fired corrosive Romanian “P” ball manufactured by Factory number 22 in 1984 as a benchmark. This attained an impressive 1461 fps from the TT33 pistol and over 1900 fps from a rebarrelled Remington Model 722 with 20” barrel.

    Before loading for your 7.62x25 pistol you will want to make a chamber cast. Measure both chamber neck and ball seat diameter. There is wide variation in chamber diameters in the east bloc stuff and groove diameters ranging up to .315. I've never seen a 7.62x25 barrel smaller than .308” groove diameter, but I have seen chamber necks as small as .330” which precluded loading bullets of diameter larger than .308”!

    A charge of 5 grains of Bullseye was recommended by Hatcher for the 7.63 (.30) Mauser. It is also listed by Lyman. This starting load won’t cycle 100% in my Cz52 or the TT33 with the Accurate 31-087B, but does with the heavier 31-100T. RCBS Little Dandy Rotor #10 meters an actual weight averaging of 5.3 grains of with current Alliant from my measure and cycles both pistols reliably with either bullet. Velocity approximates PPU at 1400 fps with Accurate 31-087T, or 087B and 1370 fps with 31-100T. It approximates the .30 Mauser at 1300 fps with the 90 grain Hornady XTP. “Magnum pistol” powders : Alliant 2400, H110/W296, and VVN110 all work well in near case capacity full loads. With the 7.62x25’s short neck, neck tension/bullet pull may be inadequate to prevent bullets “telescoping” into the powder space, if bullet fit in the sized neck is not correct. Bullets suited to the M1 Carbine work best when a case full of slower-burning powder provides support to the bullet base, in the same manner as if loading black powder in the .44-40 Winchester. Having the bullet base protrude below the neck-shoulder junction does not cause problems when jacketed bullets are loaded when slower-burning powders such as #2400 are used which fill the case. With fast-burning powders and loading cast bullets recommended practice is to avoid deep-seated bullets to minimize risk of gas cutting and bullet base deformation. Good results are easily obtained with cast bullets optimized for the 7.62x25 such as the Accurate 31-087B and 31-100T.

    Based on previous success in the .32 ACP I decided to try Olin AutoComp in loading for the 7.62x25. A charge of 7.4 grains was metered using RCBS Little Dandy measure rotor #9 which meters the 5.0 grain start load with Bullseye. This proved satisfactory giving 1353 fps with the Hornady 86-grain SP and 1450 fps with Accurate 31-100T.

    Water jug tests with the Hornady XTP were impressive, blowing the first gallon jug to smithereens in a manner similar to 110-grain .357 Magnum loads. The XTP bullet expands to about .50 caliber, stopping in the third gallon jug, denting its far side, not exiting. This is entirely adequate penetration for a defense load. PPU FMJ loads shoot clear through a 40-inch stack of water jugs and whistled through the trees downrange, as would be expected.

    Test firing my Polish copy of the TT33 there were no surprises. Point of impact firing PPU FMJ with its fixed sights was about inch high at seven yards, two inches high at 25 yards, four inches high at 50 yards and “dead on” at 100 yards. Sandbagged, handheld groups were about 3 inches at 25 yards, cast loads a bit better. All manner of cast bullets of various shapes fed reliably, even the Accurate 31-095T which has a ” meplat! The advantage of a bottlenecked case! The start load from Lyman, 5 grains of Bullseye occasionally bobbled with 85-87-grain bullets, but cycled reliably with Accurate 31-095T and 31-100T. Increasing charges to 5.3 grains ran every cast bullet tested!!! The RCBS Little Dandy measure Rotor #13 measures about 10 grains of Alliant #2400 which cycled the guns well. Velocity was 1277 fps from the TT pistol with the 93-grain Norma .307” FMJRN, and 1777 fps from the Remington 722. Plainbased cast bullets of 13 BHN alloy did not lead severely, and shot well in the pistol, but did lead badly and shot wildly at over 1800 fps in the 20” rifle. Data are summarized in the accompanying table.

    Table 1 – Velocity Test Data for 7.62x25 in TT3 Pistol Vs. 20” Rifle
    Handloads in Starline cases with CCI500 primers
    Ammunition Description_________________Vel@15ft., Sd, ES n=10
    ____________________________________TT33, 4.6”_______________Rem. 722, 20”
    Romanian Type P Ball, Factory 22, 1984____1461 fps, 27 Sd, 76ES_____1903 fps, 17 Sd, 50 ES
    Yugoslav PPU Ball,_____________________1310, 26 Sd, 66ES________1684, 15 SD, 50 ES
    Hornady 86-grain SP, 7.4 grs. AutoComp___1353, 20, 71_____________1872, 17, 51
    Accurate 31-100T, 7.4 grs. AutoComp_____1450, 16, 50_____________1846, 13,40, barrel severely leaded in rifle
    Accurate 31-087B, 5.3 grs. Bullseye_______1433, 28, 71_____________1567, 18, 62, barrel lightly leaded in rifle
    Accurate 31-087B, 10.8 grs. #2400________1321, 11, 32____________1821, 11, 27, barrel moderately leaded in rifle
    Norma 93-gr. FMJ .307”, 10.8 grs. #2400__1277, 18, 44____________1777, 25, 46, Very accurate in all guns tested.
    __________________________________________________ _________________________________
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  11. #31
    Boolit Master Texas by God's Avatar
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    I really like the cartridge but not the Tokarev or the CZ52- yes, I've owned both. What I would like is a 1911 .38 Super with adjustable sights and an extra 7.62x25 6" barrel.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master


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    I too like the cartridge very much. The Tokerev gets a bad rap. I find it accurate and (more importantly) very reliable. A good combo to thwart goblins in body armor...

  13. #33
    Boolit Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    I have a Cz-52 that came to me as a box of parts. New firing pin and a couple of days of tinkering had it running like a top.

    I did reform some .223 blank ammo to 7.62x25 but it was a fair amount of work for not a lot of return.
    And my Cz-52 loves to scatter brass way way out.

    About the time I got all the kinks worked out I bought 250 rounds of PPU Jacketed Hollow Points.

    I need to get mine to the range again. My results closely matched Mr Harris's accuracy wise.

    Still a fun gun to shoot with a lot of history. I was born in 52, mine was made in 53. Close enough to give it a little extra sentimental attachment. I sure wish I could hear some of the story's these older guns could tell.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master
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    I always loved my CZ52, until I got a TT33 - just think it feels better.

    Now.. if I were to carry one... I'd load around some HDY XTP 90gr pills for carry.

    But I wouldn't carry either - there are just too many good low cost CC options out there that are far better in so many ways.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master
    9.3X62AL's Avatar
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    I have examples of the C-96, the TT-30/33, and a CZ-52 on hand. These are all fun to shoot, and AA-7 powder has become my go-to fuel for these pistols. I do not carry the 30 Mauser/7.62 x 25 Tokarev as a defensive tool, these are sport pistols and varmint whackers for me.
    I don't paint bullets. I like Black Rifle Coffee. Sacred cows are always fair game. California is to the United States what Syria is to Russia and North Korea is to China/South Korea/Japan--a Hermit Kingdom detached from the real world and led by delusional maniacs, an economic and social basket case sustained by "foreign" aid so as to not lose military bases.

  16. #36
    Boolit Master Texas by God's Avatar
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    A scaled down little bolt rifle in 7.62x25 would be fun as could be.

  17. #37
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Texas by God View Post
    A scaled down little bolt rifle in 7.62x25 would be fun as could be.
    Something like this?

    Click image for larger version. 

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  18. #38
    Boolit Master
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    Wolf sold/sells an extra power main spring that reduces how far brass is flung from a CZ 52!

    It tamed my “52” a lot.

    Three44s

  19. #39
    Boolit Master

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    Probably not my first choice, but no slouch either, especially with the JHP rounds shown in the previous photos. The old 7.63 mm Mauser round was sure an innovation in it's day, and then the Russians souped it up a bit. The bottlenecked cartridge case keeps coming back in such cartridges like the .357 SIG. I've got a pair of CZ 52s, but can't warm up to them. Accurate, reliable, ugly are words that come to mind.

  20. #40
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fishman View Post
    Dieselpunk style. Did anyone catch that reference in the review?
    That one went straight into my vocabulary library index. Thanks for reminding me. Is there a cooler new phrase heard lately? Maybe the one by Kenny on "Auction Hunters" TV show. With his accent, "pop goes the weasel" comes out "Pop go...ooo de weeza". I have been working on that with the accent to use on family and friends.
    AKA hans.pcguy

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check