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Thread: 7.62x25 as self defense round

  1. #1
    Boolit Master Artful's Avatar
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    7.62x25 as self defense round

    http://www.alloutdoor.com/2015/04/06...kly+Newsletter
    Is 7.6225 Appropriate for Self-Defense?

    Examining the ballistic performance of high-velocity hollow point ammunition.

    Posted April 6, 2015 in Shooting by Oleg Volk


    Surplus 7.62x25mm FMJ ammunition: corrosive, flashy and punchy.

    7.6225 Tokarev cartridge is a higher-pressure 1930 update of the 1896 high-velocity 7.63mm Mauser. Originally designed for pistols, it was also used in several submachine guns. As a result, it used mainly medium speed powders and produces a substantial muzzle flash. Most of the ammunition available is military surplus, with thick jackets and great penetration–a predictable product of high velocity and small cross-section. A typical Tokarev-chambered pistol launches 85 grain bullets at around 1400fps at the muzzle. Some surplus and modern factory loads approach 1500fps. In gelatin, that gives a straight line 30-caliber 30+ inch long wound channel that widens only where the bullet flips end over end once. The plus side of the load is its high penetration, sufficient to defeat car body panels and lower-level body armor. The down side is its high penetration, almost guaranteeing that the bullet will exit an unarmored opponent and keep on going. For a defensive round in an urban environment, that’s a liability.

    Despite this potential problem, quite a few people carry pistols in 7.6225. They are relatively inexpensive, robust, and have a dieselpunk style to them. The two most popular models are CZ vz.52, a roller-lock delayed blowback Czech pistol, and a TT33, a Soviet locked beech design with very simple lockwork.
    vz52 pistol with military holster

    vz52 pistol with military holster. The design doesn’t seem drop-safe.
    TT33 pistol in a custom Kydex holster

    Polish TT33 pistol in a custom Kydex holster. The added safety only blocks the trigger but not the sear.

    TT33’s simplified lockwork means that it cannot be carried cocked and locked despite being a single action design. By doctrine, it should be carried at half-cock, but safety of that practice is in question.

    The accuracy of TT33 and vz52 varies from good to poor, depending on the barrel condition and the trigger. Soviet-made TT33 has a narrow, sharp trigger face, which makes the heavy pull even more problematic. The sights of a Czech pistol are typical tiny metal nubs. TT33 uses a tall, narrow front blade and a wide rear notch, a design that works fairly well even in poor light. Both designs are reliable, and the bottlenecked casing shape helps with easy extraction.



    Most recently, a Yugoslav M57 variant of TT33 has become available in the US. Broadly similar to the original, it has a longer grip and holds an extra round in the magazine, bringing the total capacity to 9+1. It also has a 1911-style safety that blocks the sear.



    Wider trigger face helps with the still heavy trigger pull. With a pistol that can be carried safely, the interest in the cartridge has increased again. Unfortunately, surplus ammunition has largely dried up, and most of the commercial loads are plain ball with the usual over-penetration problem.



    Serbian-made Prvi Partisan JHP load is economical enough to be use for carry and occasional practice.

    This ammunition proved extremely consistent, with measured velocity always in the 1403-1408fps, even in different weather. It’s behavior in gelatin has been quite consistent as well, with 16″ of straight line penetration and reliable expansion to .45 caliber. For comparison, 45ACP Winchester Ranger SXT also penetrates 16″, though expanding to .90 caliber in the meantime. So we can estimate wound channel of 7.6225 to be similar to that of 45ACP ball, but with penetration limited to that of hollow point bullets. The smaller, faster bullet produces greater temporary stretch cavity due to the higher impact velocity.


    M57 magazine holds an extra round over TT33 or vz52.

    Advantages of 7.62 JHP over 45ACP are capacity for the same magazine size, flatter trajectory, slightly lower felt recoil. The same advantages were cited in support of 38 Super ammunition back in the 1930s. Not surprisingly, one of the export variant of TT33 included a 38 Super barrel as well as a 9mm Luger barrel. Shorter 9mm cartridges required a magazine spacer for reliable feeding, but 38 Super fit just fine. For short-range use with pistols, 45ACP JHP is quite obviously superior to 7.62 JHP in terminal effect. The question is: “With improved ammunition, is 7.6225 good enough to be considered a practical defensive round?” The answer, based both on gelatin testing and on hog hunting results, seems to be “Oh, very yes!”
    Interesting - never considered it for hog hunting.
    Last edited by Artful; 04-16-2015 at 12:42 AM.
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  2. #2
    Boolit Man
    9-toes's Avatar
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    I was thinking about getting one of these but component availability is one of my deciding factors when buying a gun. Frankly I get the chills just thinking about having to chase that brass on the range. I ended up with a Zastava 9mm variant that I will be working up a load for shortly. She ain't the Prom Queen in my collection but so far she seems sturdy.
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  3. #3
    Boolit Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    PPU Ball gives 1404 fps in my Cz52.

    Sellier & Bellot ball gets 1687 fps!

    Accurate 31-087T and 5.5 grains of Bullseye cycles reliably at 1370 fps. and is more accurate than surplus ball ammo.
    (5-grains of Bullseye listed by Lyman for .30 Mauser / 7.62 Tokarev is only 1250 fps, and too weak to function my CZ52).

    6 grains of Bullseye with 93-grain Norma JSP (.307") gets 1493 fps., functions reliably and shoots to the sights.
    Last edited by Outpost75; 05-13-2018 at 11:27 AM.
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  4. #4
    Boolit Master


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    I use Clark's Crazy Power Pistol load with surplus 110 grain .30 Carbine bullets. I don't use his max load, I go a grain under. haven't chrono'd it yet but WOW!

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Russian mob hit man weapon two to chest one to the head. When the police try to trace the pistols the records stop at WW11. Their are guys they call black panther who hunt old battle fields to dig for weapon and sell on the black market. One of the few pistol caliber that can make holes in bullet proof vest that some mob guys wear. That why one to the head to make sure. I reload for mine with hollow points it has better knock down power. I also have a AMT 30 caliber carbine pistol that is a power full flame thrower

  6. #6
    Boolit Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    I've been shooting my CZ-52 for about a year with the Lee .311 93 gr bullet sized down over 4-5 grains of Red Dot.

    As for components, I've been making my own brass out of .223 blanks (GI issue I got a big bag from a buddy)
    Because the blank brass tends to be thinner I wouldn't trust them 100% for .223, but cut down to 25mm and sized they work fine.

    I suspect mine are not as fast as the Military ball ammo or the PPU (I have a couple of boxes of those for home defense) but my home built rounds work fine for practice.

    My only real complaint with this Caliber/Pistol, is that it seems to throw the brass as fast and as far as it throws the lead. I lose about half of my brass on any given outing.

    As for forming, the Lee dies are not great, they don't IMO put enough neck on. So I found a work around solution, but it is not elegant. I'm using a Lee Loader in 7.62x54r, and a punch and hammer. About 8-10 good whacks drops the neck down to match factory ammo. I also use a Lee FCD die from my 7.62x39, inserting the loaded rounds in the top, crimping the bullet lightly once, and the neck a big more a second time.

    The single biggest help however was the lee trim system for this caliber. Trimming them all consistently to the same length made a huge difference. And helped with my tight chamber problem.

    I think the trim system is also removing some brass from the inside of the neck as well.

    They are time consuming (I have lots of time to kill so this is a good thing)
    They are fussy, I have learned to plunk test each and every cartridge made. Rejects go through the Lee FCD again until they pass.
    Its also a whole lot of fun for around a dime apiece, has a wicked "CRACK" to it, and not a lot of recoil.

    All in all, tis good clean fun and not terribly expensive. I would like to find a mold about .310 with a longer slimmer nose.
    I suspect that would make this whole process go much easier.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master leftiye's Avatar
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    Never seen anything fling brass around like that. Derned expensive, I lose mosta them.
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  8. #8
    Boolit Master


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    Dieselpunk style. Did anyone catch that reference in the review?
    "Is all this REALLY necessary?"

  9. #9
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    I underappreciated the one I had and let it get away. Dum, Dum, Dum.
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  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    Be nice to find some of this HP thats sold, I have never seen any in a store or at a gun show, its usually out of stock on line. HP does make them a nasty self defense gun. I like 90gr XTP in my 2 in that caliber, but theres always the liability of using such reloads.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master Artful's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leftiye View Post
    Never seen anything fling brass around like that. Derned expensive, I lose mosta them.
    Any of the HK roller delay blow back semi/full auto rifles - lethal out the front and the ejection port - I used to find the brass 60-75 feet away.
    je suis charlie

    It is better to live one day as a LION than a dozen days as a Sheep.

    Thomas Jefferson Quotations:
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."

  12. #12
    Boolit Master

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    Having handled a few TT-33's, I've always had kind of a Chicken-or-the-Egg question: was the grip angle of the Tokarev intentionally optimized for shooting sitting or kneeling political prisoners in the back of the head, or did the NKVD adopt the practice based on the grip angle of the Tokarev? the gun is ergonomically perfect for whacking someone who just dug and is standing in their own grave, otherwise, it points a mite low. . .
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  13. #13
    Boolit Master


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    There is a 9mm barrel available for the CZ52.

    Larry

  14. #14
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    With what I've read so far about brass being flung into the next county, why not use Starline brass. Dunno about most folks but just around .18ea for new stuff doesn't sound all that bad.
    Click to see what I'm doing and have available, this takes you to the VS (Vendor Sponsor) section of the site. Currently..25Rem,30Rem, 32Rem, 35Rem, 257Roberts, 358Win, 338Fed, 357 Herrett, 30 Herrett, 401 Winchester, 300Sav, 221 Fireball, 260Rem, 222Rem, 250 Savage, 8mm Mauser (AKA 8x57), 25-20WCF

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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    Having handled a few TT-33's, I've always had kind of a Chicken-or-the-Egg question: was the grip angle of the Tokarev intentionally optimized for shooting sitting or kneeling political prisoners in the back of the head, or did the NKVD adopt the practice based on the grip angle of the Tokarev? the gun is ergonomically perfect for whacking someone who just dug and is standing in their own grave, otherwise, it points a mite low. . .
    I think they were just copying parts of the Colt's (Browning's) various designs. It looks an awful lot like a Colt 1903 Pocket Hammerless with some features of the 1911 added in.

    Colt on top, TT-33 on bottom.




  16. #16
    Boolit Master




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    Check out the FN Browning 1903 model pistol. A lot of the design is carried over to the Tok 1930/33 models.

    Oh, and the Imperial Russian Army and Police used the 1903 in 9mm Long along with 32 ACP versions. The 1903 was a well-liked pistol from the days of the Russian Civil Wars between the Whites and the Reds. Fedor Tokarov just redesigned the 1903 pistol for simply manufacture and repair and the 1930 version was later refitted and reissued as the 1933.

    The Swedes even made licensed copies of the FN Browning 1903 pistol for their armed forces.

    Bruce
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  17. #17
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    the type 99's also have that same profile and grip style.
    I was looking at the magazines pictured and wondered if one of the 7.62 magazines would work in my 99's.
    one has a block for the 9mm cartridge already in the magazine, and one doesn't as the magazine is already shorter.
    of course I can swap the mag from the short one to the long one but not the other way around.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master

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    +1 on Artful's "roller locked comment" - HK91 throws the brass WAY out there, 20-30 ft
    with the port buffer on, more without it. I bought the 9mm bbl for CZ52, worked fine
    for the 3-4 mags I used to test it. Never found the milsurp ammo to group better than
    8-10" at 25 yds in the CZ52.
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    I think it would make a fine self defense gun , the only real strikes against it is that it comes primarily heavy guns that may not be as convenient to carry.

    for keep in the brass closer , a section of the fabric window screen and some spring clamps , If you have anything to clamp it to like the support of the firing line roof at the range , if you lack a good place to clamp it to some 1/2 or 3/4 inch pvc can make a frame that is light and easy to carry and transport.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    I would be interested to read how this compares to the 327 Federal Magnun. They seem like very similar cartridges.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check