Paper Patching 308 j-words for the 303 Brit

[303Guy]

Someone have me a few 308 target bullets which surfaced the other day after a brief search. I've been wanting to try something like this in a Lee Enfield. So, where do I begin?

These are moly-coated boat tail HP match bullets so I have my doubts but the way I see it, the patch will hold the bullet true to the bore and firmly in the throat for initial launch. Once fired into the bore the throat will wipe the paper to dust and the bullet should be well supported by the rifling lands but clear of the grooves. Just theorising there but I know it does work from the accounts of others on this board.

I'm hoping that neck sizing will become a thing of the past if successful (with these bullets or hunting bullets). Currently, I can't get any 180 gr hunting bullets so this may be a way to get 308 bullets to work. Also, there is the prospect of getting much shorter 125 gr bullets to shoot well at higher velocities.

Any guidance and comments will be greatly appreciated.

[atl5029]

I haven't done anything like this yet, but I planned to and asked similar questions earlier this year. I have some 308 diameter brass raptors from cutting edge I was given that I plan to PP and try in my Mosin that has a .315 diameter bore across the grooves. If I get to shooting those before you try yours I'll let you know how it goes

[wmitty]

Watching this with interest. I purchased a Columbian Mauser (.30-06) that has a .316" groove diameter. I rebarreled it to .35 Whelen but kept the original barrel wondering if as cast .308 boolit would work unsized if paper patched. Jacketed paper patched would be interesting, also.

[longbow]

My suspicion is that the bullet will be too large unless you have a really fat bore and/or thin tough patching material.

Not saying patching "J" bullets can't be done. In fact Ross Seyfried wrote an article about it many years ago where he paper patched modern "J" bullets for some odd bored old English and European rifles... mostly big bores. However, he also paper patched some 7mm "J" bullets (IIRC) to suit some in between caliber. Seems to me he varied paper wraps in both thickness and from two to three wraps to suit the application.

To get patching to hang onto the bullets he "knurled" by rolling under a file then patched the rough copper.

It is certainly worth trying and isn't going to hurt anything so have at 'er! And please post results.

Longbow

[UBER7MM]

303Guy,

From what I've read on patching 'j's, you want to have a bullet with a diameter less than the bore, so that the jacket is not touching with rifling. Will a .308" diameter bullet drop down your bore freely? The bullet in question might be better suited for a 8mm barrel. Sounds like an experiment to me.

Just a thought,

[runfiverun]

I would knurl the bullets with a file then patch to slightly over groove diameter.
the jacket engaging the rifling would actually help things along here.

[UBER7MM]

I did some testing this evening....

A .308" diameter "j" word bullet with wet school notebook (binder paper) measures the following:
2 wraps = .321"
One might be able to size the patch down a thou or two in a luber-sizer.

(That's not enough for a 8mm, need at least .324" for over groove, and .327" or so to fill the throat.)

I hope this helps,

[303Guy]

Thanks guys. Well it seems it's not cut and dried. The bore would be between .303 and .3075, depending on which rifle. The largest diameter I can fit into a neck would be around .318. A .319 core would get me there. I could use thicker paper and size it as suggested.

My thinking was that the patch would hold and guide the bullet straight into the bore where the patched would be wiped away leaving the bullet supported by the bore. I guess it's one of those things that needs to be tested to see if it will work but I won't be expecting too much. I'm guessing the powder charge should be normal starting to moderate. I only have a few of these bullets so the first charge I choose is the one I'll be testing.

Something that concerns me is that the neck grip will be paper patch grip but the core will be hard copper and not lead alloy. A paper patched alloy boolit would be unlikely to stop in the leade once it starts out the neck but a jacketed bullet might behave differently unless I wrap past the ogive so the patched ogive is up against the leade to start with.

[barrabruce]

how about a cardboard wad under the bullet to push it all through
just a sip from my can of half baked ideas.

[UBER7MM]

What does anyone suggest for velocities for paper patched 'j' words? Jacketed loads or cast?

[303Guy]

I'm not sure a card wad would work with these boolits - they're boat tails and will likely protrude past the neck into the case. I might try that with flat based bullets though.

What does anyone suggest for velocities for paper patched 'j' words? Jacketed loads or cast?

That's a good question. I'd be worried about loading a jacketed bullet at too low a velocity.

[UBER7MM]

What does anyone suggest for velocities for paper patched 'j' words? Jacketed loads or cast?

That's a good question. I'd be worried about loading a jacketed bullet at too low a velocity.

I'm thinking jacketed velocities. I'll let you know my results.


No promises, uncharted waters.....

[303Guy]

I'm thinking jacketed velocities. I'll let you know my results.

I'm looking forward to them.

Well I dry wrapped just to measure and it came out at 8.09mm (.3185) with 0.082mm (.0032) paper. It slips snugly into an unsized neck and fully seats with finger pressure alone. I could use a thicker paper or a harder paper of the same thickness. It just so happens to be raining in my parts so a trip to the range tomorrow is not going to happen. I tried a dummy round in my Lithgow and it chambers just fine leaving leade marks on the patch ogive. The bore is .304 near the muzzle but the throat is larger but I don't know just how much. The same dummy round chambers in my 1942 Long Branch five-groove but pushes the bullet back just a little. That's the rifle I had in mind. My 1940 sporterized SMLE pushes the bullet back quite a bit but not too much. This is looking promising.

Regarding choice of powders;
I have AR2209/H4350, W748 and W780, H4227 and Trail Boss. H4350 and W780 may be a bit slow for the low neck tension and I'm unsure on the W748. Well, I'm unsure on all of them. I would opt for AR2206H/H4895 or AR2208/Varget if I had some.

[UBER7MM]

I've found that neck tension is a key factor. Some of my shot (unsized) cases are too loose and I can push the bullet/boolit down too far. Consequently, I've been setting the wider cases aside.

Of your selection, W748 would be my choice. It's in the board 4895/Varget range as a medium burning powder. Start out low and work up.

[303Guy]

Thanks. I initially got the W748 as a replacement for Varget which I was giving up. It seems to work at very low loadings too. Neck tension with paper patched seems to be a little more forgiving since the patched bullet sets up onto the leade. With paper patched boolits, zero jump is desirable, perhaps because the neck grip is so low. Neck grip can be quite significant though. Perhaps I should try a thicker, softer paper like printer paper.

OK, I patched one with printer paper and it squeezes into the neck quite tightly. I couldn't push it all the way in and I struggled to get it out.

[UBER7MM]

OK, I patched one with printer paper and it squeezes into the neck quite tightly. I couldn't push it all the way in and I struggled to get it out.

This is a big problem for me too, especially with patching to an un-sized case. I've found that a filler such as Dacron is invaluable keeping the powder out of chamber when attempting to extract the cartridge during a test chambering.

My attempts with a .308" bullets patched to an un-sized case diameter were a dismal failure. Bullet centering on the bore axis and the throat appear to be the issue. If the bullet isn't centered properly at ignition, I have a shotgun firing a single large pellet.

I will attempt .308" bullets patch to throat size and neck-sized case to see if the sized case and throat sized patch centers the patched bullet in the chamber satisfactorily.

[MBTcustom]

Works just fine.
Attachment 137811
Maybe you remember this project from back in 2011? That rifle would shoot no projectile better than these depicted here.
Attachment 137812

[nanuk]

I did some testing this evening....

A .308" diameter "j" word bullet with wet school notebook (binder paper) measures the following:
2 wraps = .321"
One might be able to size the patch down a thou or two in a luber-sizer.

(That's not enough for a 8mm, need at least .324" for over groove, and .327" or so to fill the throat.)

I hope this helps,

Seifreid did some patching of .308s for a .321 bore. worked for him

[nanuk]

if you can patch it and have it fit a case at all, no matter how tight, AND it will still chamber into the tapered leade of the rifle, it should work well.

the jacket would not offer much restriction, nor would the Jword

the ONLY thing to watch for is the bullet release.

[UBER7MM]

Nanuk,

Thanks for the words of encouragement.

Unless I'm looking for a single pellet shotgun, the 143 grain spitzer boat tail .308" FMJs I experimented with failed to hit a 32" x 17" rectangle back drop at 100 yard consistently when fired from a .323" groove barrel. I cut the experiment short to save resources.

My current theory is that there wasn't any bore riding support (.308" bullet in a .311" bore), so the bullet wasn't aligned down the axis of the barrel properly. The tests were doomed from the start.

The next step would be to experiment with a longer and wider .311-.312" j-bullet to get better barring for surface for bore riding, perhaps a 220 grain round nose. If I come across some long .311-.312" j-bullets, I might continue testing.

Goodsteel has proven the concept with a .308" PP j-word fired from a 303 British. I'm satisfied with his results.