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Thread: Anyone have measurements for a 10.3x60R?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master

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    Anyone have measurements for a 10.3x60R?

    I've been trying to figure out just what these old dies are, curiosity as much as anything else. I posted about them some time ago, maybe a year, got some good ideas, then they went on the back shelf and I forgot about them.

    They're RCBS custom dies marked "412 M&V B.P. EXPRESS". The assumption is that the cartridge was either a 10.3x60R or 450/400 2 3/8", in possibly a Miller & Val Greiss rifle. There was a chamber cast that came with the dies, and I finally got around to making a cerrosafe cast of the sizer die. Attached is a photo of the chamber and sizer cast next to the COTW page for the 10.3x60R.

    Cartridge length and neck diameter match pretty close for the 10.3mm, but the base diameter is smaller (.520 vs. .545) than what COTW shows as dimensions for either the 10.3x60R or the 450/400 2 3/8, the body appears shorter than the COTW photo, and the neck longer for the same OAL.

    I didn't see anything in the book that matches dimensions. It looks like someone went to considerable expense to have some custom dies made. Any ideas? Anyone have either a 450/400 or 10.3mm round that you could measure the body length to the neck and the base diameter for comparison?

  2. #2
    Boolit Master

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    my quick 2 cents - 1st) Barnes book is about cartridges - NOT chambers. I would not be at all surprised to see some slop on the demensions.
    It seems like the 0.025" difference is a lot, but then again, there is no telling what the guy ordered or how close to spec the product was.
    "412 M&V B.P. EXPRESS" is not the most popular cartridge and I would not be surprised to see that much difference between two gun makers reamers.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master

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    I have the chamber cast, which I would expect could be loose, and also the sizer die cast which, while based on this particular chamber cast, should be much closer to the actual cartridge. 25 thousandths IS a lot, especially when the chamber is physically smaller than the cartridge in question. Bigger could be attributable to just an oversized chamber (though .025 is still an awful lot of slop), but not smaller.

    I posted about this on a cartridge collector forum and received a helpful response from an Italian member there. His suggestion led me to a little research that suggests there were many European sporting cartridges around the turn of the 20th century that were based on the .43 Mauser. Looking at the dimensions for the .43 Mauser makes me think that the mysterious "412 M&V BP EXPRESS" was more than likely one of those, probably something like the 10.25x60R as suggested by the post on the other forum. Apparently all the various gunsmith/manufacturers had their proprietary rounds. Rifles in this particular chambering are probably scarce as hen's teeth nowadays. That's my best guess.

    Coincidentally, the dimensions are pretty close to the 40-75 Remington, but it sure seems a lot more likely that it's one of the old European black powder sporting rounds.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    The bullet diameter shown by the grooves from the cerrosafe cast would be interesting, as .412in. doesn't sound right for the rounds you mention. Also I can't believe in anyone going to that trouble and expense to make a .520 case head for a .545 chamber. My guess would be a wildcat round, modern in concept, to make use of the German rimmed version of the 6.5x68 Schuler case.

    I have some RWS cases for this one, current production about twenty years ago, which I used to make the 7.7x60R, and they were both very tough and heavy, and cheaper (within the European Community) than Bertram etc. It would be logical enough for M and V, whoever they were, to use it for experimentation entirely their own.

  5. #5
    Boolit Grand Master Good Cheer's Avatar
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    Dies like those make me start to itch when I get to thinking about a full length formed belted magnum case and how little a custom chamber reamer for a new build would actually cost.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

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    The groove diameter of the chamber cast is .412".

    I did find some information that indicates there were a number of proprietary/wildcat European rounds a century ago that were based on the 11mm Mauser. From looking at dimensions and drawings of the 11mm Mauser compared to my casts, it looks pretty clear to me that that's what this was.

    What little info I could find on Miller & Val Greiss is that they were a European gun company a century ago that sold or manufactured fine sporting rifles and shotguns, so that seems to fit also.
    Last edited by fatelk; 04-16-2015 at 01:49 PM.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    There is a cartridge listed In WB Dixon European Cartridges Volume 1 page 46 called 10.25x60 r ( aka 10,2x60r ) listed By Lorenz as catalog MB128
    . Dim are in MM you willhave to convert
    bullet 10.25
    case 59.94
    rim 15.00
    base 13.00
    neck 19.00
    mouth 11.0o
    dade c 1873
    until c1888
    DWM# 49
    the drawing shows a mausr A base and can be made from 43 mauser (11.15x60 r mausr)
    NRA Endowment Member
    International Ammunition Association
    New York, the Empire State Where Empires were Won and Lost

  8. #8
    Boolit Master

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    Very good, 10.25x60R it is. Those are pretty much the same measurement that the guy on the other forum came up with for 10.25 as well. They also match very closely with my measurements from the sizer die cast. Close enough to be a pretty good match I think! Thanks all for helping me solve a minor mystery.

    The bullet diameter may be a bit oversize for caliber, but the sizer neck diameter looks small enough that I expect if someone wanted to use them for a slightly small bullet they should just be able to turn down the expander plug a bit.

  9. #9
    Boolit Mold
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    I know that this is an older post, but I have an old rifle built on 71 Mauser style action, I did a chamber casting on it yesterday, and it looks like it is 10.25x60r the information on this thread is very helpful, I would like to try to make some ammunition for it, any help would be appreciated.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check