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Thread: Andy's Rust Blue thread WIP

  1. #41
    Boolit Master

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    I have really enjoyed this thread and have been tempted to add my input but the info has been such that it was best left alone, thanks for the effort and the EXCELLENT info!

    I would like to say that the parts about prep has been spot on, prep will not only "make or break" a good job it can and all too often does ruin not only the job but the gun itself! I have seen several guns absolutely destroyed (appearance) by ham-handed preparation and the end result was a finish that was actually worse than what they had when they started. The one that has gotten me to comment now was one that I saw just a few days ago, this was a pitiful looking model 97 Winchester Trench gun that had been stolen and with the thief thinking he had been seen leaving the house he had buried this fine old shotgun under some leaves beside the road. He was right, he had been seen and was caught the next day but it was another 24 hours or so before he fessed up and told where the gun(s) were hidden. After about 48 hours under those damp leaves the gun(s) had a light coat of surface rusting, I looked at that shotgun and told the owner I could see only light surface rusting that should clean up with nothing more than steel wool and maybe a light polishing and quoted him a price to do this and to hot blue the gun. Here is where things went sour, he decided he would just do the job himself and ordered some Oxpho-Blue from Brownells and then he set about sanding off the rust. When he brought it by a few days ago to show me the job he had done I could clearly see every single spot where the rust had been even slighted pitted, I saw this gun before he worked on it and I know there was no pitting that would not have cleaned up but had made the usual mistake of concentrating directly on the rust spots thus leaving "dips" or low spots that could easily be seen even through that somewhat dull cold blue finish. That wasn't the worst of it, all of the corners/edges were rounded off where he had just sanded over the entire gun without regard to these very critical areas probably with a soft sanding block or just by palming the paper. Previously crisp stampings were now "soft" and had that all too common smeared appearance that is the hallmark of an amateur prep job, even he could see that something wasn't quite right but he thought he could get me to hot tank it and fix the problem! There simply is no way to fix this kind of error, once that metal is gone there is no practical way of repairing it short of a VERY expensive professional restoration usually reserved for very special firearms.


    Prep is THE most important step, heck it's 90% or more of the entire rebluing job, but it seems to be the least covered in these types of discussions usually getting only casual mention -if even that. The well said warning at the beginning of this thread about using power sanding belts/tools is good advice indeed! In fact avoid using power tools as much as possible and this usually means only for buffing to high gloss if a shiny finish is desired, unless a high gloss hot blue surface is the goal I see no need for power tools at all as these can ruin a gun PDQ!

    The things to avoid are,

    DON'T dwell on a small area, concentrating on a rust pit or small area of pitting will result in an uneven surface with dished out shallow areas that will stand out like the proverbial "sore thumb" after the job is finished. The proper way to do this is to block polish the entire area as much as possible and resist the temptation to even lightly concentrate on any one pit or small area, NEVER "finger" a pit or small area by using the finger tips on the sandpaper. A dished out or shallow spot will look worse (much worse!) than a small pit left in the surface so sometimes it's necessary to leave a few pits rather than make things worse by trying to remove 100% of the surface damage, remember that pit is a spot where the metal is simply gone, it's not just a blemish it's a hole down into the metal and the entire area around the pit(s) must be removed to a depth equal to the bottom of the pit in order to eliminate it. Unless this can be spread out over a large area the result will be that ugly dished out appearance.

    STAY AWAY FROM EDGES as much as is practical! Approach edges and corners with EXTREME caution and never allow sandpaper to go over a sharp edge or corner unless it is backed by a hard sanding block and that block is supported well back from that edge/corner! When sanding over an edge or corner the paper will have the tendency to "rollover" these edges as the support is lost from the block extending over the part, this is very difficult to control unless you pay CLOSE attention and it only takes a very few careless strokes to do serious damage! Of course it's not always possible to use a hard sanding block in tight areas or any uneven surface so in those cases use extreme care and polish only up to the edge trying not to go over, this is usually time consuming and the hardest part of the job but it's time and effort well spent.

    STAY AWAY FROM LETTERING/STAMPINGS as much as is practical! If rust is in lettering/stampings it can be removed by using a pointed tool, I use a carbide scribe, then the area surrounding the lettering/stampings can be polished with the hard backed sandpaper but be careful here. If there is pitting in these areas of lettering/stampings then a decision will need to be made as to how much the depth of the lettering/stampings should be sacrificed vs any pitting, usually a compromise is made but a few light pits near lettering/stampings will not look nearly as bad as lettering that has been nearly sanded away.


    BE CAREFUL WITH THAT BUFFER! If a high gloss finish is the goal (this doesn't apply to rust blue) then buffing is the last step and here too disaster lurks! It's surprising to some folks just how fast even a buffer with those soft wheels can round off edges and cause lettering/stampings to smear so just as with polishing with sandpaper be EXTREMELY careful when buffing near edges/corners or other delicate areas.


    All of the above has been assuming that some rust has to be dealt with but it's just as important even if there's not a speck of rust on the gun, above all else maintain those crisp edges/corners/lettering! I have seen several guns ruined, or at least noticeably damaged, by rounded off edges and corners even when the intent was just to restore areas of worn bluing.



    Not trying to highjack this thread and the OP is to be commended for his efforts and the excellent information he has so kindly provided. It's just that so many otherwise nice firearms have serious refinish flaws that need not have happened and while there is much discussion to be found on the various types of bluing available to the home refinisher, and the application of these processes, all too often the most important step is hardly mentioned if at all. Prep is the key to a nice finish, the prep is actually the job itself and is what people see in the finial product while the actual blued surface is just the icing on the cake!
    Last edited by oldred; 05-10-2015 at 09:39 AM.

  2. #42
    Boolit Buddy
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    Thanks Oldred! Not a hijack at all. It helps when another person reiterates some points and puts it into real life experiences he's had as well.

    Another way to save a badly pitted rifle or pistol:

    You don't have to sand all the pits out!!!

    If you are lucky enough to know a good gun engraver or can farm it out to a professional, not only can they integrate the pitting into their engraving, but if it is tastefully done, the engraving will improve the overall value of your previous eyesores.

    The magic that can be done on a pitted old firearm by a good engraver. Beautiful!
    Last edited by andremajic; 08-16-2015 at 02:48 PM.
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    "As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a downright fool and complete narcissistic moron."
    H.L. Mencken

  3. #43
    Boolit Buddy
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    Just finished a rust blue on this Machete today. I didn't take before pics, but it had rust and pitting on the metal. Since this is going to be used on a daily basis, I just roughed it up with an abrasive scouring pad and cleaned with dishwasher detergent.

    Only took 3 applications of rust blue to get this finish. Finished it with motorcycle chain wax, which is really hard to rub off.

    He was very happy with how it turned out. I got a bayonet that I'm working on at the moment, I'll post pics when it's done as well. These were freebies to local business owners so they'd get the word out and help sell my rust blue formula.

    You don't have to use this on just firearms guys. Think about using this on old rusty things in your garage as well. It's cheap practice and makes them look nice.

    Total time invested was about 15-20 minutes of work, spread out over a 3 day period.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I might also be doing this to my reloading die sets as well. I think it would look nice to have black dies accented with brass rings...

    UPDATE: Here is a bayonet I just finished today.
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    It had rust on the blade, and the tip was chipped. It's sharp now and looks much better!

    Only took 2 treatment sessions to get that color!
    I didn't touch the sheath, so you can guess what the original condition of the blade by looking at that!

    Andy
    Last edited by andremajic; 08-16-2015 at 02:49 PM.
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    "As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a downright fool and complete narcissistic moron."
    H.L. Mencken

  4. #44
    Boolit Buddy
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    This is a pic of a Vietnam era pilots machete that I finished today. The blade guard was so rusty and pitted that I figured paint would be the only option. NOPE. Cleaned up nice!

    It folds like a pocket knife and the blade guard is so you don't cut yourself on what's left of the protruding blade.

    Never saw one of these before.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    It took 3 sessions of coating, rusting, and carding before it got to how it looks now. There were some pits in the metal, but the owner didn't want any metal taken off, just wanted to halt the rust and make it black again. I think it looks pretty good now. There's oil in the nooks and crannies and it doesn't sound like it's full of grit when the blade opens or closes.

    You don't have to use this bluing solution for just firearms people!

    Andy
    Last edited by andremajic; 08-16-2015 at 02:49 PM.
    Check out my vendors section:
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    "As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a downright fool and complete narcissistic moron."
    H.L. Mencken

  5. #45
    Boolit Master Just Duke's Avatar
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    Great job!

  6. #46
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by DUKE NUKEM View Post
    Great job!
    Thanks for the compliment! I got to get my butt in gear and start on that pistol again, so that we can get some finished pictures. Trying not to rush the job though.

    Andy
    Check out my vendors section:
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?231-Andy-s-Slow-Rust-Blue

    "As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a downright fool and complete narcissistic moron."
    H.L. Mencken

  7. #47
    Boolit Buddy Johnny_V's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andremajic View Post
    Trying not to rush the job though.

    Andy
    Andy,

    Remember, it's "slow" rust blue.
    Your Feedback is appreciated
    Johnny V
    NRA Benefactor
    Member OGCA & GOA
    CCW OH & PA

  8. #48
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny_V View Post
    Andy,

    Remember, it's "slow" rust blue.
    Very true, and should be repeated to oneself as often as needed to slow down. Don't rush it, people!
    Check out my vendors section:
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    "As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a downright fool and complete narcissistic moron."
    H.L. Mencken

  9. #49
    Boolit Buddy FWest's Avatar
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    A test for me before doing something of value. This is one of the first things I made on my lathe and mini mill.

    A clamptite tool. Made from mild steel, 3 coats of Andy's Rust Blue.


  10. #50
    Boolit Buddy
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    I'll have to admit I had to google clamptite to figure out what it did. Slick! Now I need to make one for myself.

    Did you go off plans, or just reverse engineer it by looking at one? I'm guessing you have use of a mill to create the slots that go thru the body?

    Good job on the bluing. It didn't use up hardly any bluing solution to complete it, did it? A little goes a long ways.

    Andy
    Last edited by andremajic; 06-03-2015 at 06:27 PM.
    Check out my vendors section:
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    "As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a downright fool and complete narcissistic moron."
    H.L. Mencken

  11. #51
    Boolit Buddy FWest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andremajic View Post
    I'll have to admit I had to google clamptite to figure out what it did. Slick! Now I need to make one for myself.

    Did you go off plans, or just reverse engineer it by looking at one?

    Good job on the bluing.
    I saw a few pictures on a hobby message board. A gent was making them and wooden boxes for gifts. The boxes were very nice and the tools were perfect. So basically just tried to copy the tool, no way I could have made the boxes.

    I am not a machinist just a hobbyist.

    You were not kidding when you said your bluing was easy. Great product.

    Thanks

  12. #52
    Boolit Master
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    Attachment 136443"As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a downright fool and complete narcissistic moron."
    H.L. Mencken

    That day has already come.

    You will want to clean all traces of oil/wax/grease off of the part. The only problem I've ever had rust bluing a part was a rifle treated with silicone. That stuff is a nightmare to remove!

    I use regular ol' dishwasher detergent to degrease my parts. It has a high alkalinity and is made to be aggressive on grease. Rinse with plenty of hot water. Try to handle the part with bare hands as little as possible. Using gloves is recommended, but not absolutely necessary. (Did I mention that this process is extremely forgiving?

    To be continued...stand by...[/QUOTE]

  13. #53
    Boolit Buddy
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    Here's a bayonet for a M1 Garand. A previous owner had used an angle grinder on it and really boogered up the blade, so it took a lot of work draw filing and sanding to get most of the gouges out and make it retain it's shape it should be in.Some of the grinding marks were too deep and I had to leave them alone, otherwise the blade would be too thin.

    This is what it looks like after an application of my rust blue, before it is set out to rust. There is a brown almost coppery color to it, which shows that I have good even coverage.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Once this is converted black oxide, the gouges that are left on it will be much less noticeable.

    Ok, after the first 24 hours, the blade didn't have enough of a velvety coating of rust on it, so I coated it with more rust blue without boiling. It looks like this:
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    I let it sit another 24 hours, and boiled it in distilled water.

    this is what it looks like after carding and oiling. (2 treatments) One boiling.
    It's been coated with a light machine oil.
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    Looks very nice now. Much more presentable. If it's sunny tomorrow, I'll be able to take a much brighter picture.

    Andy
    Last edited by andremajic; 06-09-2015 at 08:50 PM.
    Check out my vendors section:
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    "As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a downright fool and complete narcissistic moron."
    H.L. Mencken

  14. #54
    Boolit Bub
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    My run with Andy's bluing.

    Ok, I kind of finished 2 projects with the bluing. First was a used Ruger MKII that the prior owner put a clamp style scope base on & scratched the bluing.

    Initial stage:

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    Sanded down:
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    First coat:
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    Final bluing before heat & dunk into used engine oil & wd40 mix:
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    And I drilled & tapped it so I can put a proper Weigand base on it.


    Next up was the Caspian:
    First coat:
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    I ran into some issues after about 3 coats. The cloth I was using wasn't rough enough to take it down, and after about 8 coats it looked like this after the final dunk in oil/wd40.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    So I called Andy & we visited a couple times on what was going wrong. I was pleased with the frame but the slide had those brown streaks all over.

    I switched to using 0000 steel wool for the carding, took the existing bluing off the slide, and started over with the slide only. That worked a lot better.

    Here's the temporary end result. I still have just a bit of brown tinge at the rear of the slide, but I'm going to Camp Perry for the national matches and don't want to correct it and run out of time.

    Here's the current final stage:
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    I'll redo the slide again when I get back, but it looks a lot better than when it was in the white and then I'll have more time.

    Al
    Last edited by Stork; 06-25-2015 at 03:20 PM.

  15. #55
    Boolit Buddy
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    Nice work Stork!

    Seriously guys, if you're stuck on something, my phone number is printed on the front of the bottle. Don't hesitate to call.

    Andy
    Check out my vendors section:
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    "As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a downright fool and complete narcissistic moron."
    H.L. Mencken

  16. #56
    Boolit Master

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    I finally got around to using the Rust Blue solution and while the results are good, I should have continued the process. I took down my LCT to rebuild it with all new parts (a used press I acquired the first of the year) and decided to re-blue the steel columns and the steel handle. I didn't get any before pics, but there was some rust on most of the steel parts.
    First pic is of the re-blued parts:



    Second pic is of the LCT and the un-assembled parts :



    Third pic shows start or re-assembly:



    Fourth pic shows assembled steel parts:



    It's been a "longer than I anticipated" process but the results are good.

  17. #57
    Boolit Buddy
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    Looks very nice! I'd be happy with a press that looks like that. Thank you for sharing!
    Check out my vendors section:
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    "As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a downright fool and complete narcissistic moron."
    H.L. Mencken

  18. #58
    Boolit Buddy
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    I finished prepping the S&W and coated it with a layer of rust blue.
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    Now the revolver and cylinder is hanging up in the bathroom to rust.
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    The cylinder/yoke/crane combination will be disassembled and cleaned after boiling and carding. Right now, it makes a good way to handle the cylinder without touching it. You could just totally disassemble it and use a dowel to hold it with, but I prefer this way.

    Check back for updates...
    Last edited by andremajic; 08-22-2015 at 10:01 PM.
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    "As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a downright fool and complete narcissistic moron."
    H.L. Mencken

  19. #59
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Finished the smith and wesson. I think it looks nice for over 100 years old eh?

    It took 4 coats and rusting sessions for it to get to where I was happy with it.

    I didn't blue the trigger or hammer, since these are case hardened parts. I did clean them up with steel wool. The only real pain with doing revolvers is all the contours and tight spaces, especially the internals behind the plate.

    TIP:
    I found that a pair of curved needlenosed hemostats gripping a small ball of 0000 steel wool works well to get into small tight areas for carding off the loose rust.

    Overall, I'm very pleased with the revolver and since it was a great shooter with almost zero cylinder endshake and tight tolerances. I figured it should look as good as it shoots!

    Andy
    Last edited by andremajic; 08-22-2015 at 10:07 PM.
    Check out my vendors section:
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    "As democracy is perfected, the office of the President represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day, the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be occupied by a downright fool and complete narcissistic moron."
    H.L. Mencken

  20. #60
    Boolit Buddy Magana559's Avatar
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    I got mine on friday, going to give it a go on a shotgun barrel I have laying around. Give me a few weeks to get around to it as I have lots going on at the moment.
    1,000,000 peso man

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check