bullet sizing

[kokomokid]

Are you sizing before or after you roll the patch on? That is of course if you size at all.

[BrentD]

When I size, I patch first, then size. No lube.

[Huvius]

Depends on the rifle and how many molds/sizer dies you have.
I use one adjustable mold for a few rifles so for example, a boolit sized to .442" patches up right to .451" which is perfect for my Pedersoli Gibbs but those same patched boolits need to be resized to .450" to fit the Rigby. I know, doesn't sound like much but the .451" won't get started without pushing way more than I want as well as the worry of damaging the patch.
I have used the same boolit mold for a 461 Gibbs, 500/450 No.1 and No.2s and 458WM but each needs a little sizing either before or after the patch is applied.

[Nobade]

I size first, then patch. If needed.

-Nobade

[BrentD]

Kokomo- if you end up with a bullet of exactly the right size, then you are good to go and it won't matter which way you do it. But I'll make a pitch for sizing after patching. Ultimately, the only thing that matters is that the bullet is the right size when it goes into the bore. Where you might, at some point switch papers and thus thicknesses, or encounter batch of the same paper that differ slightly in thickness, the size-after method will iron them out to the same final product, and you will end up with a more uniform product.

You won't lead up your sizing die either (not that this is a big issue with sizing first).

But in the end, if you get to the right final product, that's all that matters.

[KenH]

Since I'm VERY new at this PP'ing stuff, I've been sizing after patching. That seems to make the patch really hold nice to the bullet during seating.... and maybe it helps with my "not so good" patch rolling?

Ken H>

[BrentD]

If it gets you the right fit with the bore it's good! I do it sometime s when the situation calls for it.

[dave roelle]

+++ for sizing after patching ----------try for a perfect wrap fit so you won't disturb the naked bullet surface

Dave

[country gent]

while paper is tough it does stretch, shrink, and compress. I patch to bore dia and have a bullet that with my paper comes out at .449 dia with no sizing. But If siszing was needed I would probably size the bullet first then patch so as not to disturb the wrap. Done corectly a PP bullet is very round and true the patch is tight to the bullet and the papers integrety is intact. SIzing the bullet after wrapping may affect (stretch, tear or warp individual fibers in the paper). I believe sizing the harder bullet material first will result in a more consistant bullet. A slightly dampened or dry patch wrapped tightly and folded over is completely intact. where the ends meet up may be an issue also when sizing after patching as the patch makes a tight bend there from over the underwrap to under the outer wrap. Use an angled patch that puts the wraps ends at roughly 1/2 dia or 180* around bullet t help keep things consistant and balanced. SIzing the patched bullet could also affect the patches release from the bullet ironing the paper together in a pressure bond, you want the patch to release at the muzzle or very close to it, basically at the same place every time. A patch that dosnt releasle or sticks to the bullet is a flier

[KenH]

Country Gent - everything you say makes good sense, all I've got to do is get good enough at this PP wrapping to make it happen {g}

[country gent]

Some simple helpfull tips and how to are available here. Another very good source is Loading and Shooting Paper Patched Bullets, A Beginners Guide. By Randolph S. Wright. It has alot of very good solid information in it. Another trick is to make a simple patching boards to help alighn and set everythig accuratly when starting out. A simple Patching Board can be made from a 1" X 8" X 8" or longer depending on wants needs. 1/2"-3/4" from long edge cut a straight parrallel slot 1/4" deep with a table saw. Lightly bevel edges with a file or plane 45* x .060-.090 wide. This groove is where the bullet sits on the patch. Next cut a 1/8" wide groove 1/2" deep down center of board at 90* to the first. A piece of brass, Steel, aluminum or plastic 1/8" X 3/4" X 8" is glued into this slot, this is the rail to square the patch to the bullet. Now on eack loawer corner glue a block of the hard wood 1" square or round will work fine (I used round and inset it with a forester bit for a better joint when glued in place) Thru this block drill a 1/4" clearence hole directly above slot and at a hieght so a nut or bolt head just clears. This is the stop the bullets nose sits against to maintain tail length on bullet. A piege of 1/4 " X 20 ready rod with a nut peened on the end and squared up or a long bolf works here 2 1/4" nuts lock it to the desired dimension 1 on each side of block. A wing nut or thumb nut on outside edge makes adjusting easier and faster. In use sit patch along rail leaving a little "over hang" to get ahold of. SIt bullet on patchtch with nose against storp with thumb roll "over hang" around bullet and wrap rolling bullet while down into groove to tension paper. when wrap is completed and tight remove and fold tail over base. Its quick simple and easy to use. A good oil finish or lauquer helps with the patch sliding if wrapping wet or damp a good water proof finish will perserve the board better. My Patching Board is such I can set it on my lap and wrap while watching TV.

[dave roelle]

If you dry patch no board is required----(it takes a bit of practice)----just the patch template and a piece of metal with a bore sized hole to mark the ogive break to locate the patch.

simple effective and no fliers perfect shreds ----------a controlled!!! "precise" fit to the bore not dependent on exact paper thickness or shrinkage, adjustable with the sizing die to what ever level of interference works best for you

Works for me

Dave

[KenH]

Country Gent - could you post a photo of your patching board? I've looked on youtube without success at finding a good patching board - many videos on patching bullets. I've drawn your board out on paper best I could but still have a hard time visualizing how it's setup and used.

Dave, dry patching just might work - as a newbie I'll be trying dry as well as wet patching.

Ken H>

[dave roelle]

Ken----i have done both, for me dry patching is superior----------in the end test its what you like and whats works for you-----------FIT is the key

Dave

[montana_charlie]

Country Gent - could you post a photo of your patching board? I've looked on youtube without success at finding a good patching board - many videos on patching bullets.

A patching board:




A patching video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1DmoZnYIQE

[country gent]

My board is diffrent from what alot use. I drilled and used polished 3/8 oak dowels in place of the slot and bevels ( gives a smoother "flow" to the paper. ( dowels are 5/16" down from edge and on 7/16 centerlines. By putting the rail down the center of the board it allows you to experiment with direction of the wrap. One side or the other of the rail. My stop locates of the nose of the bullet as my PP mould casts a cup based bullet. My board has a slot accross the top that holds a supply of patches. Below that is a hole with a base that matches my cup based bullet to help tightly iron the fold over into the cup evenly. I did this with a bullet wrpped in masking tape to +.010 over wrapped dia waved this and base with several coas of wax for release agent. JB weld into 1/2" hole drilled 5/8" deep and pushed bullet into the hole. Makesure to get even flow out the top all the way around. let cure till stiff ( not fully cured and cut excess off with exacto knife. A little polishing gompound to "lapp bottom to bullet when cured and it makes a lovely formed fold into the cup base everytime. I dry wrap mostly and use the board as its easier for me to maintain consistency. After a few sessions with the board skills you may decide you dont need it any more. In use I lay the patch along the rail with 3/4" overhang off the board edge. SIt the bullet on patch with nose against stop. with thumb roll patch (extended length) over bullet and wrap rolling bullet in the groove. Give 1-2 extra revolutions to tighten patch wrap. Grip between thumb and forefinger pick up and with thumb of other hand forl patch tail over base of bullet. I then insert this into the base form and give 1-2 revolutions while pushing down. this completely forms paper into cup base giving very even folds around base. The patching board Montana Charlie shows is what I was describing with a added stop for the bullet to alighn it easier. I also bevel the edges of the groove to allow paper to slide smoother.

[KenH]

OK - thanks for info. I watched video and he rolled his patch the same way I do.

Looking at the board photo above, it looks like the groove the bullet is lying in, do you roll patch by rotating the bullet in that groove pulling the paper down and around bullet? OR - is that a starting place and the bullet rolls up the paper patch as in video?

Ken H>

[BrentD]

That is my patch board. The groove and the fence are things I thought would help when I started. They are actually pretty useless.

All I really need is a smooth, elevated surface.

[KenH]

Thanks Brent - just wished to confirm.

[Lead pot]

If had to use a patching board I would fall asleep because of boredom. I can wrap a bullet a lot faster by hand wet or dry.

As far as sizing a bullet. I do everything I can to avoid sizing a bullet be it a GG or PP. I get a mould or swage die that is the proper size. A PP bullet you can most generally change the diameter with the paper thickness for good results. When you size a bullet that is two or three thousands oversized, some go to more extremes, you are changing the profile in one way or other or if your not careful you will flow the lead in an uneven manner from side to side or to the rear.

I always say; if you shoot an ugly bullet you will get ugly results down range.

Kurt