Mould based on w/w, may need hardball; best 45/70 alloy, 1600 fps?

[huntinlever]

Hi,

Not sure if this is the right area as it spans two questions, but hopeful it is close enough and appreciate the assistance.

I have an Accurate mold coming in 45/70, 425 grain 330 meplat, .460. It was ordered on the basis of w/w, and I'm now not confident in finding the alloy - thinking of just buying an alloy from Rotometals, probably hardball.

I understand this will increase the size of my cast bullets to about.46075 if using hardball. I have a .460 sizer coming from Buffalo, but was told I may need to go to .461 to avoid bullet distortion.

Two questions:
- what does the community feel is the right course here, if using the hardball - size to .460 (my bore slugs at .458), or go with the larger sizer, .461?

-Secondly, my intended load will get me to an estimated high-1500's fps. I don't have the pressure data. It's IMR 4198, and doing trials with 420 grain cast performance, 38.5 grains yielded the best groups. I've yet to chrono the loads, but will this week. At any rate, if keeping to 1600 fps (and its related pressure), what alloy would you recommend as best suiting? I'd love to keep with w/w, but I don't know that I can find it, and Roto does't make it. So I may need to adapt.

Thanks - out of town today but appreciate any thoughts, and will reply when we get back.

[MBTcustom]

I would cut your hardball 50/50 with pure lead. That would give you something closer to COWW + a little tin.
Check out their "antimonial lead" http://www.rotometals.com/product-p/antimonial_lead.htm
You could take that and add scrap solder to it to balance out the tin and antimony a little for an alloy that is roughly 96/2/2 which I consider to be a fantastic 45-70 alloy at the speed you desire (that's where I run mine too).

Honestly though, if I were you, I would just check the S&S area and buy range scrap from one of our vendors (all mine comes from blackbike) for $1 per pound + shipping. Cast it, run it, and be happy! Most range scrap is about 1% antimony and casts a pretty darn well good enough bullet for the 45-70 any old day of the week.
I wouldn't mess with certified ROTOmetals unless I was going for the long toss with a Sharps style ingot chunker. For the Marlins and the Handi's, the advice above is golden.

[dubber123]

I'd suggest trying a variety of diameters from .459" on up and see what your rifle prefers. I size close to .462" to better fit the gigantic chamber my Marlin CB came with. I've very successfully used simple water quenched WW's for 1,800+ fps. loads in a Marlin Guide
Gun. A 600# moose failed to stop the last one. Members often sell WW ingots on here for reasonable prices.

[Tatume]

I have a .460 sizer coming from Buffalo, but was told I may need to go to .461 to avoid bullet distortion.

Sizing a few thousandths will not harm your bullets.

[Larry Gibson]

If obtaining WWs becomes a problem (and it most certainly is) then I suggest an alloy of 16-1 (lead - tin). I shoot numerous 45 - 70, 357, 41, 44 and 50 cal bullets at 1400 - 1600 fps of that alloy will complete satisfaction as to accuracy and terminal performance. It also will not drop as large from the mould as will hardball or hardball cut 50/50 with lead.

Larry Gibson

[grouch]

+1 for what Larry said. Hard cast tends to be over rated. 16:1 should easily achieve 1600 or more, especially in the relatively slow twist usually seen in 45 - 70. Good luck!
Grouch

[huntinlever]

Guys thanks for all the help - out of town and just got back after a long to and from today, but grateful for the help. Would like to chew on these posts tomorrow and will reply once I've had some sleep. Encouraged at the many options - much appreciated!

[Wayne Smith]

Realize you are shooting a caliber that has more than 100 years of experience behind it. "Hard" alloys of the '30's-'60's was 16-1 lead - tin, the same alloy Sharps used in their loaded cartridges (Remington used 20-1). You don't need to go any harder than that.

[huntinlever]

Thank you Wayne. So no need for antimony, then? Sounds great to me. I've been thinking on this thread (thank you again everyone) since this morning and wondering if until I get a better handle on metallurgy (and scrounging, to be honest - e.g., I like your notion, goodsteel - yet another area to study), whatever I end up doing as a long-term practice, just buying the pure alloys from Roto is a good first step; much like my buying bullets while I've learned at least the rudiments of loading practice. I see the 16:1 there - a good first step?

[runfiverun]

20-1 is approximate to ww alloy in bhn numbers and is also more traditional for the rifle.
you can buy the 20-1 just about everywhere.
you can buy more tin.
you can make 16-1 from 20-1.

I shoot ww alloy cut with soft stuff 3 to1 in my 45-70.
I use a gas check boolit. [and water drop from the mold to speed up the cooling process]
I push it along with 24grs of 2400, sometimes using Dacron sometimes not.
I size to 459.
it's about 1600 fps and it's accurate.
I doubt anything i'll ever need to shoot would stop this boolit.
all I got.[shrug]

[Lead Fred]

Been shootin wheel weights @ 1750fps for a long time, with no ill effects.
Id not worry at 1600fps, sounds like you have a proper fit, fire at will

[MBTcustom]

I push it along with 24grs of 2400, sometimes using Dacron sometimes not.
I size to 459.
it's about 1600 fps and it's accurate.
I doubt anything i'll ever need to shoot would stop this boolit.
all I got.[shrug]

Lamar, that's exactly what I do, with the one exception of sizing to .360.
However, my 22" 1895 Marlin spits them out at 1450-1500 almost exactly right on the tick.
What rifle are you using? (as in barrel length?)

[Jevyod]

What you are doing is almost exactly what I am running. I am running a 420 grain boolit over a 40.5 grain charge of IMR4198. I size mine to .460 and with the load I am getting a velocity of 1600 fps. The only thing I am doing different is my alloy is 50%COWW/50%Pure +2%. And that gets powdercoated. My gun is a new 1895 Marlin SBL with the 18.5 inch barrel.

[44man]

Several things I have found with my 45-70 revolver at 1630 fps with my 317 gr hard boolits, they are accurate and I get less fliers with hard--well, it is a revolver! But it pokes a clean hole in deer, sad results so I tried 50-50, WW and pure, oven hardened and destruction was more then I can handle. Got a shoulder exit and lost almost all of it. I am thinking of just a soft nose or 75-25 for a trial.
Now in my BPCR I use 20 to 1, sized .460" to .464" depending if I fit to the chamber or groove. I never shot a deer with it so don't know but once I tried WW's and got leading even with large boolits. I get no leading in the revolver with any alloy.
But BP is slower and I feel 20 to 1 would be fine for hunting.
My suggestion is to see what shoots best and don't worry about reaching a certain velocity, let your gun be the judge, it will be just as deadly at 1200 fps, maybe more so. I have killed hundreds of deer with a .45 flintlock and round balls so the 45-70 will do anything. I would not shoot too fast with soft, I hate to carry a meat grinder in the field.

[runfiverun]

browning 85.err 86
it's barrel is on the tight side for sure, and it really needs the throat reamed out.
I could get away with sizing to .458 without any problems but I got a 459 sizer long before I got the rifle.
from here the barrel looks to be 26" it's sitting next to my 24" 44 mag and 45 colt and the barrel looks to be 2" longer than theirs.

how's that for lazy??

[huntinlever]

Thanks for all the help, guys.

Runfiverun, thanks for the additional note on the 1:20 alloy. Sounds great. I can always add in additional tin, as you say. BTW - I've got some pure lead. I'd love to get started and can make up 1:20, for example. Where do you guys source pure tin?

Jevyod, thanks for your notes as well. Sorry for the noob question - but your 2%, this is an additional 2% tin, or antimony? And man, I tell you, I'd love to just work with w/w, but am finding it very difficult to obtain. The only source in town would sell it to me for $0.70 a pound, and that's unsorted, so after all is said and done, my mind is stirring me to just going simple, with pure alloys from Roto. But if I could get it, based on your experience and that of a friend on MO (see below), I'd love to do w/w.

As I've mentioned over on the other site, I'm constantly having to watch my tendency to believe "more is always better," meaning here, faster and high BHN is always better. My load, I think, will get me to 1550-1600; have yet to cast it and chrony it. But I don't need to go faster, that I know, and 44man, I hear your experience talking about a "meat grinder." The only impulse pushing me towards faster is the desire to have a gun covering out to 200 yards - but again even there, have to honor the intrinsic nature of the 45/70 and not try to make it flatter than it "naturally" is. So emphasizing learning its ballistics, and proper holdover...not flat trajectory.

Someone also over on Marlinowners I respect quite a bit does it w/w-pure 50:50 as well. The more I'm learning the more I'm coming to realize this push for hardness is off-center on my part, and using the bore to size the thing is itself a good thing, or can be. I think perhaps just staying 10-12 isn't a bad thing? Would water quenching either 1:20 or 1:16 keep to it 15-16 BHN, or would it go higher (I saw a range of water quenched w/w from 15-18 BHN).

Lead Fred, fire at will - do you mean, you'd not worry about a gc?

So, can I ask the community a kind of reality check?

Given my desire for ethical killing out to 200 yards - and 44 man, I have thought about even keeping it to trapdoor levels, for several reasons...still thinking on it - would 1550 or so serve well? A kind of happy marriage between a flatter trajectory than under trapdoor levels, with still needing to learn holdover? My thing isn't to monkey around a bunch with different loads, etc. - but to find one load that works well in my gun, fix on a very clear hunting purpose, and then practice that load incessantly until I, my gun and range conditions are as close to what I experience in the field as possible. Meat, and a humane kill, are my highest aim.

Would you guys say anywhere from 11-16 BHN (water quench, or not to water quench?) is a good workable range, or is 16 itself really unnecessarily, perhaps too hard?

With a bore at .458, happy to size with a .460 die. On the other hand, if I can't obtain w/w and end up with an alloy that will result in a slightly bigger bullet, no problem again. Meaning, my hope is to just drop the bullet and shoot without sizing, provided it comes out at least .460, and under .461.

This is my hope. Pan lube and go. The only issue I'm having is that I do want to gas check, for a few reasons. So - is there any way to do it without any sizer? Without the Lee, which includes the crimp, or a Lyman/RCBS sizer, with the Lyman gc seater? Seems pretty silly on my part to buy a sizer not for sizing, but just to seat a gc, yes?

Finally - I know this is likely unanswerable, because like everything, everyone has their favorite - but how do you guys feel about LBT soft, for this purpose - and as a possible pan lube, provided I can gc somehow, without a sizer?

[44man]

Water hardening does not work without a trace of arsenic and antimony so 1 to 20 will not change.
Drop is always a question and my .44 will drop 35" at 200 with a 75 yard setting, no big deal since it only drops a few inches at 100. My 45-70 revolver only drops 16" at 200 at 1630 fps. Drop can be figured from shooting anyway. BPCR's have a ladder sight but you need to know the distance to the animal. It never hurt the old buf hunters. I am sure a scoped 45-70 can be made to hit easier then a ladder sight. Better to have a little more velocity so there is enough energy at 200. Heavy boolits hold energy better too.
I think you can do it if you just get used to drop. Just means more shooting and what is not to like?

[44man]

I got tin from Midway last time but was sold a pile of 50-50 lead and tin body sticks cheap. I used to get tin at BPCR shoots much cheaper, always someone selling stuff.

[huntinlever]

44man, thanks much, good to know. So unless we're talking w/w or something containing these, your BHN remains the same. I've seen various figures, depending on the manual or source I'm reading, but the Cast Bullets manual shows w/w as BHN 9, and 20:1 as BHN 10, with Lyman's No. 2 at 15.

Shooting this bullet sized at .460 in the .458 bore, with a relatively soft BHN of 10, and a moderate velocity of 1550-1600, then - good to go? (I'd like to just drop and shoot as is, which will probably give me a slighter larger boolit - pan-lubing without sizing - but then I can't see how to seat the gc without sizing the bullet as well).

Edit: Thanks on the tin note, too. Sounds like I just need to sharpen my scrounging skills, though getting started with pure alloy from Roto might not be a bad way to jump in...

[Jevyod]

Sorry I should have specified. I add 2% pewter. It works pretty much like tin from what I understand. imashooter2 on this forum sells some. Also with the velocity you are seeking, that is the very reason I wanted 1600 fps. A bit less drop. I had tried lighter charges of 4198 (35 grains) but had some unburned powder in the barrel. I upped the charge to 40 grains, and no more problem with that. I did shoot a deer with my 45-70 this year with the load I described. With the wide flat nose, it seems like expansion is not needed. It hit like a ton of bricks. The deer stumbled HARD at the hit (80 yards) and ran only 20 yards before piling up. Basically had a nice 3/4" hole going in and coming out. Now I know that is only 1 deer I shot with that combo, but man it sure made a believer out of me! And don't worry about all the noob questions. I am still there myself, but can finally offer a little bit of advice!