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Thread: Martini Cadet to .357

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
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    Martini Cadet to .357

    I have a couple of Martini Cadet rifles and would like to convert one of them to .357 Magnum caliber, never having done this I would like some input to a couple questions. I will not be doing this work myself.
    I see that it is advisable to bush the firing pin. Is this always done or dependent on the individual rifle?

    If this was your conversion would it be best to re-barrel or reline the original barrel. If I reline then the one with windage and elevation adjustable sights would be my choice, the other Cadet has only elevation adjustable sights and would be my choice if I re-barrel, either way I want open sights.

    Any recommendations for a gunsmith to do the conversion? Any other considerations or input would be appreciated.

    Thanks,
    Gene

  2. #2
    Boolit Grand Master Nobade's Avatar
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    Are you located in the United States? If you are, you're probably aware how valuable unaltered Cadet rifles are now? If the bore is wrecked, I would suggest a rebore by one of the better outfits that do that work. But if the barrel is nice, I would certainly replace it so that you may return the rifle to its original configuration if at some point you wish to sell it.

    -Nobade

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	135281I have a early one ( SN#19X ) that has been rebored and chambered to .357 mag in the 1950's when imported. Nice rifle, super accurate. Low pressure reloads were fine with it, but standard pressure or above were a problem. The hole for the fireing pin in the bolt is to large along with the dia. of the fireing pin itself. When fired, before repair, it often punched a hole in the primer, the primer flowed into the firing pin hole in the bolt making the action almost impossible to open after firing. I tig welded the bolt face closed, minimal heat, re-drilled the firing pin hole smaller, turned down the stock firing pin, and all was well. Can't remember the sizes, if you need them, I can disassemble and measure. A word of caution, the bolt is a hardened part, special precautions are necessary to weld up the firing pin hole and keep from annealing the bolt. Also, when re-drilling the firing pin hole, a special bushing needs to be made to keep the drill centered in the bolt. If you are unable, or don't have the stuff to do this, let a machinist or gunsmith do it. Good luck with the conversion, I sure like mine. The re- rifling job almost looks like it's done on Marlin tooling with a micro-grove rifling. The lower rifle is a IMI timberwolf in .357. Martini always is a more accurate rifle with the same round.
    Chris

  4. #4
    Boolit Master Speedo66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobade View Post
    Are you located in the United States? If you are, you're probably aware how valuable unaltered Cadet rifles are now?
    -Nobade
    Geez, when I was a kid Kaufman's Surplus store in lower Manhattan, dispossessed when they built the World Trade Center, had barrels full of them for $11 each. Only rub was no cartridges available for them at the time.

    Should have gone long in them.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    NoBlade is spot on the value thing. Did the Reno Gun show Friday and they had several small frame for sale, none cheaper than $750, and none that were original. One conversion had a tag of $1800. If I had a choice and wanted a .357, I'd buy a good barrel blank if the original has a good bore, just change barrels keeping the original for a possible resale at a later date. Mine is a re-bored original barrel that still has the markings of a 310, but is also stamped .357.
    Chris

  6. #6
    Boolit Mold
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    Thanks to all for the input.Looks like 1) I will have the firing pin bushed when the conversion is done 2) I'm looking into re-rifling, I hadn't considered that as a option before. Pertaining to the value question, I see people asking a lot for some of these and they aren't moving, when I check the sold prices at gunbroker the average selling price is still around $500-600 for a gun in issue configuration, good to VG condition with a good bore, if you had one in mint all bets are off for the price. The one Martini I have has some light surface pitting on the action that will clean up on a surface grinder, and is the one I will sacrifice. The other Martini is in VG+ condition, .310 Cal., and I will leave it as is.

    Any gunsmith recommendations would be welcome.

    Thanks again, Gene

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    My first try with the oversized firing pin hole was to bush it. Made a stepped bushing to hold the location on the bolt face with a nice press fit, still the bushing came loose after the first 500 rounds or so. Then I went to tig welding the bolt face, re-drilling from the rear, never a problem after. Note that a carbide drill is necessary to drill the bolt face, hard stuff. Sounds like there is a person on the board here that does re-bore work, JES re-bore is the person you might look for. Quality work, sounds affordable as well.
    Chris
    Last edited by cwheel; 03-29-2015 at 10:06 PM.

  8. #8
    Boolit Mold
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    Thanks Chris, I will start with JER re-bore and start this journey, it should be interesting.

    Gene

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Yes, a .357 Cadet can be a lovely little rifle - much nicer, I think, than rounds like the .32 Winchester Special or .44 Magnum which some people suggest. To judge their money value you would have to examine not just asking prices but what people are regularly getting, which may be a quite different thing. But even leaving money out of it, it would be a great pity to alter a Cadet in good order, even including alteration of the chamber to use .32-20 brass. Like land, they aren't making them any more.

    Anyway, the .310 round is a very useful small-game one, and a mould and dies are likely to cost no more than buying your reamer. It is unlikely that a .32-20 will work well with bullets of the standard .32-20 diameter, and the greater bore diameter is likely to cause a misaligned chamber unless a special reamer pilot, fixed or detachable, is used.

    If I had a Cadet which was already an unsatisfactory bubba job, or a disembodied action, I believe I would go for one of the octagonal barrel blanks which are made for the 94 and 92 Winchesters. They look extremely good, and permit easy and firm bedding of a forend without benefit of epoxy. They are pretty easy stockmaking jobs for the amateur, in British rook-rifle style, and I think you would get better accuracy with a short forend. If you go for a pistol-grip you could shorten the lever and make it latch on the front end of a steel or horn pistol-grip cap. You could silver solder on a ring-shaped terminal, or a soft steel ball made for slingshot use.

    The picture is my stock-drilling... er... device, which is no work of art, but works.


    Click image for larger version. 

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  10. #10
    Boolit Master
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    I agree with the observation that most Cadets with high price tags go begging for a buyer. $5-600 seems to be the going rate for ones that sold. At that, it's still not a bad price for the basis of a fine custom sporter. Heck, decent M98 Mausers are fetching that kind of money in some quarters. It just adds to the cost of the project is all, and it's only money.

    I would send out the one with adjustable sights and have it re-bored to .357, not lined, especially if cast bullets only will be used in it. Lining might be the ticket if jacketed stuff will be shot through it- if the liner is made of tougher steel than the original barrel. Absolutely have the firing pin bushed.

    Actually, were it mine I would re-barrel and re-stock it along classic lines and configure an aperture rear sight or install a slim low mounted scope if chambered for a a mini .22CF. Gotta love small Martinis (but not so much in their original form).

  11. #11
    Boolit Master

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    I have rebarreled more than a few cadets, even one in 357 Max. For my own I went with a 32 S&W with an octagon barrel. Long strait cases have a problem with the extractor not kicking the shells out, the worst being a 22 mag.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Taylor View Post
    I have rebarreled more than a few cadets, even one in 357 Max. For my own I went with a 32 S&W with an octagon barrel. Long strait cases have a problem with the extractor not kicking the shells out, the worst being a 22 mag.
    That's true. I have heard some reports that .357 Maximum can't be inserted into the chamber, albeit more that say it can. It might be that Cadet actions vary in shape or height of the breechblock, so it would be a good idea to make up a plastic dummy barrel stub and cartridge before laying out much money. Then again, some people call the later BSA rimfire club rifles Cadets, which strictly speaking they aren't, let alone the rifles by Francotte of Belgium, who invented the action type, and which are about as well made as anybody's.

    I don't see how the .357 Magnum can be ruled out as a deer rifle, since some use it in a pistol, and you can get more velocity and better bullet placement with a rifle. But this is one application in which the Maximum should offer a significant advantage. For anything smaller, I would sooner go for rounds from .357 Magnum downwards, with more reliable availability of cases in years to come. The only reason I can see for choosing the .22 Magnum is starting from a .22LR and chickening out of converting the breechblock to centrefire.

    There are two quite different problems with an excessively large firing-pin hole, when the pressure is increased. One is simply having both pin and hole too large. This, at the level we find in Australian Cadets, may not be bad with even a rather intense straight case, like the .357 family, so it is worth trying, and examining the primers. Remember that the sliding breech face will exaggerate any extrusion.

    Strengthening the spring may help this condition, but doing it by using a longer or shorter spring is a chancy business. Putting in more coils of spring actually weakens it. Shortening it makes it stronger (just try squeezing a single coil between your fingers), but reduces the preload. One way around this is the square-wire springs which are sometimes used to position the halves of injection-moulding dies.

    Worse I think, is when the pin is a loose fit in the hole. For this you need to make a new firing-pin, or insert a new tip.
    Last edited by Ballistics in Scotland; 03-31-2015 at 02:51 PM.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master

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    I sold one in 357 magnum maybe a year ago. It went in the $500+ range. I agree with another post here: people are asking high prices. Selling prices are another matter.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master


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    Rebore to 357, chambered by one who offers this service as there are a few. Bush the firing pin hole and new/altered pin which is a standard procedure.

    I do not see it as a do-it yourself as if you have to ask you are not qualified or not ready for the work needed.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master

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    For those wanting to go to the 357 Max. The top of the breach block needs to be cut deeper. Also bushing the firing pin is a must. If you get a primer flowing into the firing pin hole you won't get the action open without a big hammer.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    I would be wary of weakening the small Martini block. If this is done it should be only the rear part, behind the point where it is very thin over the firing-pin tunnel. It would be quite hard to make it blend in smoothly with the rest of the curve. It would be possible to weld up the cocking indicator slot, or silver solder a piece of steel to fill it. It isn't normally a source of weakness, but just might be with a deepened cartridge trough.

    It might be that quite a small chamfering of the top edge of the chamber would permit the Maximum to enter. I don't see any danger in this, as long as it doesn't go beyond the solid head of the case.

    I have seen a small Martini shear a slightly extruded firing-pin indent without much trouble. If it is happening enough to impede opening, that could be the least of your worries. The Martini handles gas escape from a ruptured primer quite well, but I don't suppose it is sure to be safe.

  17. #17
    in Remebrance
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    Just had to jump in here. A Cadet in .32special will kick the snot out of you due to the light weight. The barrel shank is too small for safety going to .44Mag, the thin chamber walls can lead to a swelled chamber, I've seen several. I have a Cadet in .357Max, shoot RD359190's in it, just have to hold the lever down, slides right in, altho it does not "sling" the fired case out due to slight drag on the block. Funny thing is that the RD359175 boolit is a little trickier to load due to being a shorter, fatter nose. GW
    "If you can walk with crowds and keep your virtue,
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  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    This divergence of experience is about what I would have expected. If you have access to a lathe, it would be quite simple (tedious, but you would only have to do it once) to bevel the rear edge of the rim. That might reduce the interference enough to make it eject cleanly.

  19. #19
    Boolit Buddy
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    if you are still in need of the firing pin hole and firing pin being fitted, send me a pm, i can take care of it.
    hello.

  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master
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    As you continue to gather info on this project, you might wish to visit the ASSRA.com Forum (the American Single Shot Rifle Association) and mention what you want to do. You will be amazed at how many Martini enthusiasts you find there.

    Froggie
    "It aint easy being green!"

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check