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Thread: Alloy for long nosed GG match bullets -take II

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    Alloy for long nosed GG match bullets -take II


    This is a re-post. I mistakenly posted this in the Paper-patch section yesterday and I want to get this in the correct section for comment.


    I have been working with different alloys for the target rifle matches for fifteen to twenty years now.
    None of the following applies to Paper-Patch bullets or some may, I just have not spent as much time experimenting with them and I would like to limit any discussion to the Grease Groove bullet in this thread. And a good discussion I would enjoy having! PP alloy requirements are a somewhat different animal and can be discussed elsewhere, please. I hope to not turn this into a GG/PP compare and contrast.
    Thanks!

    The suitability of the long time Lead/Tin alloys used for BPCR have been worked over by everyone.
    50/1, 40/1, 30/1, 25,1 and 20/1 were the main stay. 16/1 has been the new darling for the long nosed high Bc target bullets as of late and for good reason. Though only slightly harder than 20/1, the 16/1 has been tested to show more resistance to nose slumping than its close alloy - 20/1.
    I've shot a lot or 16/1 and have had great success with it. Although, the 16/1 bullets are not magic bullets and the full range of problems can still be had with it too.

    By my experience, there is no need to use the high tin alloys to shoot the more traditional short radius nose profiles. Their short nosed geometry proves strong enough and stable with the lesser alloys. But, in the target rifle-BPCR match shooting world, like anything else, competitors use every advantage available to them. One of them is the long, unsupported, low drag bullet nose. The so called "money bullet" is one example but there are many more. Especially when the targets are 600y distant or with Creedmoor shooting, the distance is 800, 900 and 1000 yards, then the small improvements to the bullet's nose add up over the 30 shot or 60 shot final scores. In other words, if you are shooting blunt bullets or bullets made blunt and off center by soft alloy in long-range matches, you are suffering death by a thousand cuts.

    This would be a good place for a picture of bullet nose examples but I can not pot pic's just now. I will work on that.  anyway....

    I've taken to shooting various Lead-Tin-Antimony alloys in Match shooting. Years ago, common knowledge, received wisdom and wives tails stated that shooting the widely available wheel-weight alloy and/or any amount of Antimony in your BPCR alloy would grow hair on your hands. Or more to the point, leave lead in the barrel and produce poor accuracy. I never found this to be true. Not one little bit. When leading occurs and it does often when shooting GG bullets under a hot sun like in a Long-range match, I have never found Antimony to be the sole source of leading. Other reasons can and do cause leading and jumping to conclusions is the easy way out but not the helpful solution.

    You will notice I have avoided the mention of BHN values because of the differing values produced by the various brands of testing devices available to us at our price point. BHN can be covered but elsewhere too. As long as YOU know what your hardness values are on your tester and can reproduce it - your good!

    My best accuracy-least leading bullets to date are made of something close to but not an exact alloy of 97.5PB-1Sn-1.5Pb. I make my alloy in large batches of 200+ lbs and have had nothing to complain about. If you are faint of heart and need to have "certified metals" to sleep at night, the following alloys can be constructed by ordering metal from the likes of Rotometals, a sponsor here or others and come to exact ratios. I have found that close is fine and the least of the big picture.

    A useful alloy for the big target guns:

    Lead-Tin-Antimony or Pb-Sn-Sb by percent
    97.5 - 1 - 1.5
    This can be made by mixing 50%-50% wheelweight-soft lead and adding 1% tin to that. Easy- yes? I do not recommend adding 2% tin to the mix. This results in a greater amount of Tin than Antimony. Not good. Adding 2% tin, as often suggested does not help cast-ability much and has the unwanted effect of produces hardness changes in the alloy over time. In other words, in my experience, the addition of the second 1% of Sn in the mix produces an alloy that is not time stable. The stated 1% tin alloy is time stable and casts fine. Keeping the Sn equal to or less than the amount of Sb in the alloy seams to result in a stable hardness.

    I have used many small variations of this. I used to mix (in small batch) 30 lb wheelweight with 45lb soft lead and add 1% tin and this worked well and really great for the lighter loads used in 45-70, 40-60 Maynard, 38-55 but was lacking in big charges used in L-R loads, the 45-90, 45-100 and such.
    Next week I am going to batch up a ratio of 100lbs WW with 60 lbs soft lead and 1% tin added; a mix I have shot before. It is useful to BPCR and shoots very well. This should produce a mix that is close to 96.5 Pb – 1.25 Sn – 2.25 Sb. I want to test this alloy some more but it may not be needed to meet the desired goal and there for not a good use of the extra antimony base metal. I can re-blend it with more soft lead if there is no clear advantage.

    I would be interested in anyone’s experience using this for BPCR.
    Michael Rix
    Chill Wills

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    I do not recommend adding 2% tin to the mix. This results in a greater amount of Tin than Antimony. Not good. Adding 2% tin, as often suggested does not help cast-ability much and has the unwanted effect of produces hardness changes in the alloy over time. In other words, in my experience, the addition of the second 1% of Sn in the mix produces an alloy that is not time stable. The stated 1% tin alloy is time stable and casts fine. Keeping the Sn equal to or less than the amount of Sb in the alloy seams to result in a stable hardness.


    I would be interested in anyone’s experience using this for BPCR.
    Michael Rix
    I don't have any experience that can help you, but I have some saved from the time before Dan Theodore turned all of his posts into Greek gibberish.

    His recommendation was that tin and antimony amounts be equal within the alloy.
    His two most useful alloys were 96/2/2 and 97/1.5/1.5.

    The last was made with three parts of Lyman #2 and seven parts of pure lead.

    He liked these alloys for a couple of reasons, but an important one was their hardness stability after an initial period of change right after cooling.

    The following graph (his product) illustrates how that worked out for him:



    CM
    Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.

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    I'll leave the same answer..
    When I could get good wheelweights in enough quantity to bother using, for bpcr loads I came to really like 9 lbs of ww's with 1 lb pure lead.
    When getting enough wheelweights to make it worth the bother became impossible, I went to using certified 20-1 for most bullets, and 16-1 serves well in some other bullets, depending on a variety of things, but in the end I think it would be pretty hard to go wrong with 20-1 for all , if that's the only thing a person could find.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

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    Hey Charlie, Thanks. Those are good graphs!

    Dan and I are good friends and talk all the time. We got a strong dose of each other last week at the American Creedmoor Cup in Phoenix. Really not strong enough -I enjoy his company. Anyway, years ago he and I covered this and our experiences with Sb three metal alloy before he put these alloys to the test. One thing about Dan; he has always done the tests and answered the questions I have had but lacked the time and follow-through to do them myself! I am a father of two kids and can't get to it all - someday! He is also more dedicated to the scientific method than I am so when ever Dan has something to say, I listen. Especially if I had a different opinion going in.

    If I remember correctly, Dan used Rotometals premixed alloys like Lyman #2 (90-5-5) which when mixed with pure Pb gives equal ratios like 95-2.5-2.5, 96-2-2, 97-1.5-1.5 or what ever you want. Easy. Dan also worked with ratios with greater and lesser amounts making unequal amounts of Sb-Sn.
    But, The point for us is you clearly do not need to have equal amounts of Sn-Sb but just do not want to exceed the Sb with the Sn or hardness will not be time-stable.

    I'm writing fast so I hope that is clear... Thanks for posting those graphs!
    Chill Wills

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    About 3 years ago, I melted down about 50 lbs of extra hard shot left over from my trapshooting days. Every webpost that I could find said "bad juju". Don't shoot antimony. The manufacturers website said the antimony content was between 4-7% antimony. It formed a very cottage cheese like dross that I skimmed off and then later found out that it was mostly SB. I don't know what my SB % was when I was finished but I then added 50% pure lead. As you can see, I have no clue what the final SB % is but I keep throwing in a couple of ingots in the pot when I melt down 20 lbs of 20-1 tin to lead. What I found is that even though the mix has a small amount of SB, it changes the crystal lattice structure. The bullets come out a dull silver with a crystalline look rather than the nice shiny look of straight 20-1. I've been shooting them for the last couple of years with no leading. I always pre-lube my bore before shooting
    Now, the question is, what is it doing to help with nose slump if anything? I've read about age softening of bullets yet I've shot excellent scores with year old bullets. Good enough to win the 800 yd relay. I don't think you can take for granted that anything published in the past can be accepted unless it has been verified by somebody else. Are equal small amounts of SN,SB good enough to keep a bullet from slumping? Shooting BPTR makes it difficult because the only real testing is done at a match and matches are very limited. The target tells the story. The other way to test, is Kurt's method and he has done more extensive work than anybody else. A sawdust catch box may work but I don't know of anybody who's really done it. I looked at the PP post and it looks like Brent is about to.
    Up until 4-5 years ago, I used to be fairly competitive at Lodi, now I'm not. It's not that my scores have dropped that much, it's just other shooters have gotten better.
    I wish I were dying of a 1000 cuts, but it seems like I still have a relay that I just tank at which takes me out of the picture.

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    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    I shot up a bunch of old loaded rounds this winter that have been loaded since 09 to recover the cases. It was a rough winter for me so I just put holes into snow drifts to break the boredom The old bullets looked just as good as they do just cast. I don't see any difference between fresh cast and old.
    As far as the sawdust trap goes. It works OK oiled or dry or damp with just water. Dry loose dust is better then wet but it is not as good as snow. Snow does not deform the bullet unless it had a warm spell and turned to ice crystals.
    But saw dust will tell you what is going on.

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    My 10' long sawdust box is full of planer shaving - which are pretty small, but not small enough and that does substantial damage to the nose of a lead bullet. So, this past winter (is it really past?) we had 2000 sq feet of oak flooring refinished and I had a whole bunch of perfect super fine sanding dust I planned to use to replace the shavings. Somehow, the dust has disappeared from the garage now and I don't know where
    it went. I can't believe the chipmunks stole it all, but they may be in collusion with the mice. I don't know but I'm going to have to find 10 cubic feet of sanding dust again.

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    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Don't you have an Industrial Arts? Saw dust from under a table saw I found that does a fair job.
    mice do a find job moving things I dug out a box of boat dock lines I haven't used for several years and in that box was enough bird seed to fill a couple feeders

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    No, it's not high school here. I imagine there are quite a few table saws around campus. I know of several but they are either not used much or rare connected to central vacuums like in my own shop and thus the dust gets mixed with lots of stuff from other machines plus floor sweepings. I need to contact the floor guy for dust from his next few jobs.

    I had mice break into my house ventilation system last fall. They hauled many hundreds of acorns. I cleaned those out in the basement and dumped them in a box. Then three mice figured out how to breach the foundation and took up residence in my basement for a couple of weeks while I trapped them out, and they found their ways back in. Eventually, I found out how they were doing it and plugged it up, but then I noticed that all the acorns in that box are missing. I will be finding acorns in small handfuls for as long as I own the house now.

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    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Michael here is an example of bullets with and with out Antimony.
    The three on the left is a "money" bullet I just picked up. It is a mix of pure foundry Lead 99.9% and one roll of no lead solder 95/5. 5% antimony in that 1 pound roll. The mix was 20# lead and one roll of solder. The ogive did swell enough that the lands did make very shallow marks on the bore section.
    The two next to the GG are of the same mix. 20# lead one roll of solder. The top bullet is Brent's prolate the center is my .44 prolate I use in the .44-100 Rem.
    The second photo I used for an example of the two prolates cast using 1/19 tin/lead. This will show you what that small percentage of antimony will do to your alloy mix.
    Lyman used to offer three alloys #2,#4 and #6. #2 was the hardest and it works very good with the GG bullets. But for the PP you better use them for bullets patched over bore diameter or they will not do what you want.
    Using antimony in a alloy for bullets you need tin. The antimony will mix with lead when it is molten but the antimony will separate as it cools and you will see frosting on the bullet and that frosting will lead your bore. The more antimony in the mix you must balance it using tin. You will read posts from a lot of old lead bullet shooters that cast with WW and they will say I add tin to the mix. That is not for making the bullet harder it is for blending the extra antimony with the lead better so it does not smear the bore. Adding more lead will also do this to a point. But adding tin to a lead WW mix to keep this from happening you might just as well use T/L if your looking for something cost efficient alloys.
    This goes for Linotype and Mono type. If you add this to lead and see frosting on the bullets you will also leave it behind in the bore unless your lube is very good.


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    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    If a mouse finds it's way into my basement it eats my bullet lube and it wont be long and I will smell it

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    My mice were, apparently, too busy eating acorns to mess with lube. Though I don't really know why.

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    OK, I read this but do not have time just now to ask my questions - all of them.
    But a quick one Kurt - the picture on the right of the five bullets....can you say what alloy each is (again) I am not clear.
    Thanks!
    Good info!

    OldWin
    Brent
    I have questions for you too but they will have to wait.
    Life calls............... "yes dear"
    Chill Wills

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    Well, Michael, you know how to find us. Better yet, just come to Lodi for Mother's Day weekend and ask them in person! Best match of the year.

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    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    The 3 L to R 1 roll of solder to 20# lead. 4&5 1# tin 19# lead

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    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    To get the secret mix of this alloy mix of this Danielson prolate bullet
    that shoots a 200 yard 10 shot group like this not counting the top holes before a sight change you would have to get me in a dentist's chair to get my secret match load from me

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrentD View Post
    Well, Michael, you know how to find us. Better yet, just come to Lodi for Mother's Day weekend and ask them in person! Best match of the year.
    I just returned from the best match of the year.
    My American Creedmoor Cup. Only Black Powder & No Coaching of course, like men compete. Just you , your rifle and loads - the best you can create and 800 - 1000 yards of wind in front of you.

    If granted wishes grew on trees I would go to Lodi. However, with Family, Mother's Day, and Responsibilities! ....Do you know what an 'obese possibility' is?
    At this point in time I have to pick and choose. Maybe in my future.
    Chill Wills

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    I just returned from the best match of the year.
    Having shot both, personally, I can assure you, you have not.


    My American Creedmoor Cup. Only Black Powder & No Coaching of course, like men compete. Just you , your rifle and loads - the best you can create and 800 - 1000 yards of wind in front of you.
    Been there, done that. Will be doing it again this weekend in Oak Ridge. The "AAC" isn't the only place this happens. It happens at Lodi in the fall too.

    If granted wishes grew on trees I would go to Lodi. However, with Family, Mother's Day, and Responsibilities! ....Do you know what an 'obese possibility' is?
    At this point in time I have to pick and choose. Maybe in my future.
    Hope to see you there one day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BrentD View Post
    Having shot both, personally, I can assure you, you have not.




    Been there, done that. Will be doing it again this weekend in Oak Ridge. The "AAC" isn't the only place this happens. It happens at Lodi in the fall too.



    Hope to see you there one day.
    Cliff and Mark are great and Maybe some day but it is a mixed bunch of powders and not a north face range plus it is a team shoot. I only have a mild interest. I have shot Oak Ridge a few times and might return soon but it is not a lot of shooting for the buck. Fun though! The AZ match....You and Rhoades are like oil and water so lets just stay on bullet alloy.
    Chill Wills

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lead pot View Post
    Michael here is an example of bullets with and with out Antimony.
    The three on the left is a "money" bullet I just picked up. It is a mix of pure foundry Lead 99.9% and one roll of no lead solder 95/5. 5% antimony in that 1 pound roll. The mix was 20# lead and one roll of solder. The ogive did swell enough that the lands did make very shallow marks on the bore section.
    The two next to the GG are of the same mix. 20# lead one roll of solder. The top bullet is Brent's prolate the center is my .44 prolate I use in the .44-100 Rem.
    The second photo I used for an example of the two prolates cast using 1/19 tin/lead. This will show you what that small percentage of antimony will do to your alloy mix.
    That 20-1 is not hard enough for GG bullets with the big powder charges. The noses - you know.
    The bore diameter bullet needs a window of hard but not too hard alloy to work but that is why I want to keep them out of this discussion. Groove diameter bullets - really, chamber-throat diameter bullets need to have a hardness threshold that they exceed to work well.
    Last edited by Chill Wills; 03-24-2015 at 08:34 PM.
    Chill Wills

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check