Alloy for long nosed GG match bullets

[Chill Wills]

I have been working with different alloys for the target rifle matches for fifteen to twenty years now.
None of the following applies to PaperPatch bullets or some may, I just have not spent as much time experimenting with them and I would like to limit any discussion to the Grease Groove bullet in this thread. And a good discussion I would enjoy having! PP alloy requirements are a somewhat different animal and can be discussed elsewhere, please. I hope to not turn this into a GG/PP compare and contrast.
Thanks!

The suitability of the long time Lead/Tin alloys used for BPCR have been worked over by everyone.
50/1, 40/1, 30/1, 25,1 and 20/1 were the main stay. 16/1 has been the new darling for the long nosed high Bc target bullets as of late and for good reason. Though only slightly harder than 20/1, the 16/1 has been tested to show more resistance to nose slumping than its close alloy - 20/1.
I've shot a lot or 16/1 and have had great success with it. Although, the 16/1 bullets are not magic bullets and the full range of problems can still be had with it too.

By my experience, there is no need to use the high tin alloys to shoot the more traditional short radius nose profiles. Their short nosed geometry proves strong enough and stable with the lesser alloys. But, in the target rifle-BPCR match shooting world, like anything else, competitors use every advantage available to them. One of them is the long, unsupported, low drag bullet nose. The so called "money bullet" is one example but there are many more. Especially when the targets are 600y distant or with Creedmoor shooting, the distance is 800, 900 and 1000 yards, then the small improvements to the bullet's nose add up over the 30 shot or 60 shot final scores. In other words, if you are shooting blunt bullets or bullets made blunt and off center by soft alloy in long-range matches, you are suffering death by a thousand cuts.

This would be a good place for a picture of bullet nose examples but I can not pot pic's just now. I will work on that.  anyway....

I've taken to shooting various Lead-Tin-Antimony alloys in Match shooting. Years ago, common knowledge, received wisdom and wives tails stated that shooting the widely available wheel-weight alloy and/or any amount of Antimony in your BPCR alloy would grow hair on your hands. Or more to the point, leave lead in the barrel and produce poor accuracy. I never found this to be true. Not one little bit. When leading occurs and it does often when shooting GG bullets under a hot sun like in a Long-range match, I have never found Antimony to be the sole source of leading. Other reasons can and do cause leading and jumping to conclusions is the easy way out but not the helpful solution.

You will notice I have avoided the mention of BHN values because of the differing values produced by the various brands of testing devices available to us at our price point. BHN can be covered but elsewhere too. As long as YOU know what your hardness values are on your tester and can reproduce it - your good!

My best accuracy-least leading bullets to date are made of something close to but not an exact alloy of 97.5PB-1Sn-1.5Pb. I make my alloy in large batches of 200+ lbs and have had nothing to complain about. If you are faint of heart and need to have "certified metals" to sleep at night, the following alloys can be constructed by ordering metal from the likes of Rotometals, a sponsor here or others and come to exact ratios. I have found that close is fine and the least of the big picture.

A uUseful alloys for the big target guns:

Lead-Tin-Antimony or Pb-Sn-Sb by percent
97.5 - 1 - 1.5
This can be made by mixing 50%-50% wheelweight-soft lead and adding 1% tin to that. Easy- yes? I do not recommend adding 2% tin to the mix. This results in a greater amount of Tin than Antimony. Not good. Adding 2% tin, as often suggested does not help and produces hardness changes in the alloy over time. In other words, in my experience, the alloy is not time stable. The stated 1% tin alloy is time stable and casts fine.

I have used many small variations of this. I used to mix (in small batch) 30 lb wheelweight with 45lb soft lead and add 1% tin and this worked well and really great for the lighter loads used in 45-70, 40-60 Maynard, 38-55 but was lacking in big charges used in L-R loads, the 45-90, 45-100 and such.
Next week I am going to batch up a ratio of 100lbs WW with 60 lbs soft lead and 1% tin added; a mix I have shot before. It is useful to BPCR and shoots very well. I want to test it some more but it may not be needed to the desired goal and there for not a good use of the extra antimony base metal. I can re-blend it with more soft lead if there is no clear advantage.

I would be interested in anyone experience.
Michael Rix

[Lead pot]

Michael.

First of all I will admit that I have not done much with a GG bullet, for two of my rifles I am forced using them and I have spent several winters putting holes into snow drifts to work up alloys as soft as I can so the nose does not get set back on the longer and shorter GG nosed bullets to shoot in these couple rifles.

You are right about the tin mix especially in the WW alloy. I shoot it a lot here at home for trigger time and my Son-in-law is a service manager for Auto repair shop so I get buckets full of these dirty things that has ended since he is forced into using the new zinc weights.
Using the WW from what I see with the recovered bullets and what I find cleaning the rifle, the more lead you add to the WW the better the bore looks and the less gas cuts on the bullet bases and shanks I see. I can't say for sure if the lead smears come the richer mix of the WW or if it is the over heating of the alloy when you cast the bullets bringing the tin to the surface of the cast bullets.
The "money" bullets and postel's I have worked up the alloy with WW alloys I found that a mix of 50/50 WW/lead there is very little shorting in the bullet length and no change in the contour of the ogive with a GG bullet. I have used 40/60 WW/L but I see a slight more compression of the bullet more so in the Postell or the creedmoor nose then the "money" bullet. I think it has more to do with the heavier nose ahead of the front driving band that gets set back from the inertia when the bullet starts to move.

The lead/tin alloy.
1/16 is a good mix that stands well on a GG bullet what ever the ogive is.
I really like the mix using 0ne roll of 95/5 no lead solder that is 95% tin 5% antimony. That small 5% antimony in that one pound roll of solder does wonders for holding the nose and length of the bullets. I don't know what the percentage that antimony is in a 20# mix of lead is but the one roll of solder in 20# lead the ogives of the bullets look unfired.
The caliber of the rifle does not seem to change this much from as close as I can measure this but the powder load and wad stacks greatly has an effect.

Kurt

[Don McDowell]

Back in the day when it was possible to get good wheelweights I liked to use those at 9lbs with 1 lb pure lead added.
Nowdays I use 20-1 for grease groove, and patched bullets, with some patched bullets giving a good show using 16-1.
I think how much tin etc added to an alloy depends greatly on how big the powder charge under the bullet is. A 45-70 won't set a bullet back like a 45-100 will.

[kokomokid]

I worked with a skinny nose 40 cal Dan T money bullet for over a year to get it to shoot. Final alloy was 15/1 of roof sheet lead to 95-5 solder like Kurt uses. Bullet is light at 399 grains and 72 grains of swiss 1 1/2 puts it out fast. Dont know if the harder alloy helped with the nose or maybe less bump up in the extra long freebore but it does shoot now. LB

[Chill Wills]

I need to say Sorry to you all.
The irony is not lost on me that I mistakenly posted this in the BP Paperpatch section – I did not look close enough when I opened the “create new topic” to understand where I was. Sorry for posting a GG post in the PP bullet area. If a moderator wants to move this to BPCR to correct my error, that would be fine with me.
-Michael

[Don McDowell]

Aw shucks hang around for a while Michael, we'll get you converted,, you know you want to....

[Gunlaker]

Michael I'll have to try your alloy in my .40-65 with the Baco Money bullet. Mine sits well out of the case so holds 68-69gr of powder. With 16:1 I couldn't get it shooting quite as well as the Saeco 740, perhaps because I'm using FFFg Express which is probably hard on the Bullet's nose.

.I remember Dan talking about alloy stability a few years ago( and three metal alloys with antimony ), and I've done some reading since. It's an interesting subject for sure.

When I first started shooting bpcr rifles, before I started casting, I used very hard and oversized Postell bullets. They actually shot quite well and I never experienced any significant leading.

Chris.

[Chill Wills]

Thanks for the replies and I will respond but I think I will re-post this in the correct spot and see if I can get it going in front of some more grease groove shooters. Posting it here was really ironic

[Lead pot]

Your subconscious is telling you that your in the right forum

[Gunlaker]

That's funny

Chris.

[BrentD]

Michael,
I don't see any reason to avoid antimony in grease groove bullets. I have little doubt it will work well and maybe better than just tin. With tin getting so expensive, I suppose this would be a good alternative.

In bore diameter paper patch bullets, I just don't know. My gut feeling is that it will work just fine there too. But I haven't done it. I've been running on a large hoard of pure lead purchased directly from the last smelter in Missouri, Doe Run, now extinct. As that supply runs out sometime this summer, I'll have to try some different things. I have hundreds of pounds of x-ray room sheeting, and a lot of lead pipe and some other forms of lead that I suspect are high quality, mostly pure. But the really interesting lead I bought one day on a whim was something that was sold as "pure lead helicopter rotor weights". That doesn't make much sense at all if you think about it, but I bought it anyway. It is in approximately 12x12" square tiles and tests to be as hard as Lyman #2. At some point this summer, I will have to shoot some into a sawdust box and see how they do. I'll also try some with 50% x-ray lead mixed in and see how that does. I think it will be good stuff, but it is definitely different. It looks different when case (sort of like brushed aluminum) and it likes to cast at a much lower temperature. In the end, if it puts bullets in the x ring at 1000 yds, I don't really care, but that will be the test. With paper patched bore diameter bullets, it should work, but its not proven.

Has anyone shot bore diameter paper patch with Lyman #2? I would love to know that the bullet looks like if recovered from sawdust or snow and what recovered patches look like.

[Lead pot]

Brent

If it has antimony in it a mix of 1/20 will make your prolate nose stand in good shape but patch it tight or a little over bore.

[montana_charlie]

Your subconscious is telling you that your in the right forum

Reading a section in Wikipedia about cast bullets, I was struck by this sentence in the paragraph about paper patching.

"There is some question about whether the accuracy improvements result from the paper jackets or from the greater uniformity of shooting procedures by people with the patience to apply the patches."

[dave roelle]

This weekend i'll be trying some 75% WW + 2% tin + 25% "soft lead" that read 12 Brinell on my tester.

So some antimony content ------ money nose patched exactly to bore

The surface is a "matt" finished not nice and shiny as with lead/tin alloy

I'll do my best to capture some patch pieces for analysis

Two wad stacks, one set with a cork wad and one set with a grease cookie

Dave

[BrentD]

For 102% bullets, you better get some really accurate bullets
I bet they do alright.

[dave roelle]

The 75% WW included 2% tin in its 75%-+ 25% soft lead from x-ray sheeting-----

I hope they perform we'll see

Dave

[BrentD]

I'd have to give you only partial credit

I'm grading exams right now. Worst part of this job.

[dave roelle]

Gotcha Brent------------i thinks the bullets will "make the grade" not sure about the shooter

Later

Dave

[Chill Wills]

Your subconscious is telling you that your in the right forum

YES! That IS funny!

In fact, I will be digging out my PP chambered rifle from the back of the pile and giving it a go again. I have to break the 1.5 moa mark though if it is to ever see a match.

[Sharpsman]

My rifle must be first cousin to a morphodite then because I get the best accuracy from my Shiloh 45 2 7/8 shooting the BACO MBPP with a 1-40 alloy using a load of 102 grs. KIK 2F!!