Which cartridge in 1873 and why?

[BoBSavage]

Give me an example of a more modern load in a 44-40 made specifically for the rifle. I know savvyjack has done a lot of work with this to squeeze out a lot more performance.

I’m still not sure he could outperform a 44 magnum or a 45 Colt “magnumized”

This has absolutely nothing to do with modern factory loads. It has everything to do with the intended design and use of the cartridge.

Once again I refer you to this.....

The handloader must bear in mind, however, that this cartridge is adapted to both rifle and handgun and must be loaded accordingly. Powder that burns well in the rifle barrel will not burn properly in the handgun barrel, and vice versa.

[HWooldridge]

For example, a case full of RE-7 and a 200 gr bullet is a healthy load for a rifle but a revolver is better suited to Bullseye, or WW231, or Unique, etc.

[BoBSavage]

Now to try and get this rabbit whole back on track, the OP was about a Winchester 73' chambered for 357 Magnum or 45 Colt. If you want to compare apples and oranges, as was to the original off topic complaint.....try 44 Magnum Hornady 225 gr Leverlution FTX ammunition at about 150 yards. Yes, there are 44 Magnum Uberti Winchester 73's out there. I hear it is pretty darn good. Maybe try the same thing for the 45 Colt and 357 Magnum Winchester Levergun.

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/3...0wiggle%20room.

[Rockindaddy]

Winchester 38-40 is a great cartridge! I have a Winchester 1873 rifle and a carbine in 38WCF. Years ago you could find 38-40's loaded with jacketed 180gr jacketed flat points. These cartridges were meant for revolvers and lever guns. They are very mild. I have taken the bullets out and dumped the propellant and recharged them with 26 grs of IMR4227 and re seated the jacketed bullet. Now you have a deer load! My 1894 Marlin shoots like it has eyes with this load. Bambi never stood a chance! I don't like to use this load in my 73' Winchesters. The 38-40 Winchester is great with cast boolits too. If ya don't like casting boolits the 40 S&W 180gr jacketed pistol bullets work great too. The hollow points look like nickels after hitting a hog or deer. Woodchucks blow up with the hollow point 40 S&W boolits. You will have a lot of opinions on 38 spec./357, 44-40 WCF, 38-40 WCF, or 45 Long Colt. Buy one of each and test em!! You will become an authority!

[Michael J. Spangler]

This has absolutely nothing to do with modern factory loads. It has everything to do with the intended design and use of the cartridge.

Once again I refer you to this.....

The handloader must bear in mind, however, that this cartridge is adapted to both rifle and handgun and must be loaded accordingly. Powder that burns well in the rifle barrel will not burn properly in the handgun barrel, and vice versa.

I agreed that rifle loads with a proper rifle powder and gain more performance.

I guess I’m confused on what the point is though. Maybe I misunderstood but I thought you were saying 44 WCF is a higher performance cartridge than the modern pistol caliber cartridges.

Did I misinterpret that somewhere in the mix?

Also I’m the OP so I approve of the rabbit hole side tracks. I much prefer this type of conversation about ballistics and cartridges than one word answers.

[BoBSavage]

I misunderstood but I thought you were saying 44 WCF is a higher performance cartridge than the modern pistol caliber cartridges.

Did I misinterpret that somewhere in the mix?

Also I’m the OP so I approve of the rabbit hole side tracks. I much prefer this type of conversation about ballistics and cartridges than one word answers.

From what I can find, and from what I understand, the 44-40, being a rifle cartridge, performs best out of a rifle when the appropriate rifle powder is used to it's fullest extent. So yes, when loaded as a revolver cartridge, or when other "pistol cartridges" are loaded for use in rifles with pistol powders, they are inferior...the pistol "sized" rifle dash cartridges are superior for long distance (200 to 300 yards) and accuracy. "Accuracy" based on Townsend Whelen's 1920 data.

However, if you look at those Hornady Leverevolution rifle loads I mentioned, a correctly loaded 44-40 (and even the 38-40 respectively) can be superior when loaded correctly, NOT HV loads.



357 Magnum 140gr LeverRevolution
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory Come Up (MOA) Come Up (MILS) Wind Drift Wind Drift (MOA) Wind Drift (MILS)
0 1440 645 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 1154 414 0 0 0 0 0 0
200 992 306 -24.6 11.7 3.4 0 0 0
300 895 249 -84.4 26.8 7.8 0 0 0
400 821 209 -187.6 44.8 13 0 0 0
500 759 179 -342.7 65.4 19 0 0 0

44 Magnum 225gr LeveRevolution
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory Come Up (MOA) Come Up (MILS) Wind Drift Wind Drift (MOA) Wind Drift (MILS)
0 1410 993 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 1102 607 0 0 0 0 0 0
200 947 448 -26.9 12.9 3.7 0 0 0
300 849 360 -92.6 29.5 8.6 0 0 0
400 774 299 -206.5 49.3 14.3 0 0 0
500 709 251 -378.9 72.3 21 0 0 0


45 Colt 225gr LeveRevolution
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory Come Up (MOA) Come Up (MILS) Wind Drift Wind Drift (MOA) Wind Drift (MILS)
0 960 460 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 855 366 0 0 0 0 0 0
200 776 301 -46 22 6.4 0 0 0
300 708 251 -149.9 47.7 13.9 0 0 0
400 649 210 -323.5 77.2 22.5 0 0 0
500 594 177 -580 110.7 32.2 0 0 0


Range Velocity Energy
300, 900 to 950, 390 to 412, 217gr 44-40 correctly loaded for rifle use.

[Michael J. Spangler]

From what I can find, and from what I understand, the 44-40, being a rifle cartridge, performs best out of a rifle when the appropriate rifle powder is used to it's fullest extent. So yes, when loaded as a revolver cartridge, or when other "pistol cartridges" are loaded for use in rifles with pistol powders, they are inferior...the pistol "sized" rifle dash cartridges are superior for long distance (200 to 300 yards) and accuracy. "Accuracy" based on Townsend Whelen's 1920 data.

However, if you look at those Hornady Leverevolution rifle loads I mentioned, a correctly loaded 44-40 (and even the 38-40 respectively) can be superior when loaded correctly, NOT HV loads.



357 Magnum 140gr LeverRevolution
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory Come Up (MOA) Come Up (MILS) Wind Drift Wind Drift (MOA) Wind Drift (MILS)
0 1440 645 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 1154 414 0 0 0 0 0 0
200 992 306 -24.6 11.7 3.4 0 0 0
300 895 249 -84.4 26.8 7.8 0 0 0
400 821 209 -187.6 44.8 13 0 0 0
500 759 179 -342.7 65.4 19 0 0 0

44 Magnum 225gr LeveRevolution
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory Come Up (MOA) Come Up (MILS) Wind Drift Wind Drift (MOA) Wind Drift (MILS)
0 1410 993 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 1102 607 0 0 0 0 0 0
200 947 448 -26.9 12.9 3.7 0 0 0
300 849 360 -92.6 29.5 8.6 0 0 0
400 774 299 -206.5 49.3 14.3 0 0 0
500 709 251 -378.9 72.3 21 0 0 0


45 Colt 225gr LeveRevolution
Range Velocity Energy Trajectory Come Up (MOA) Come Up (MILS) Wind Drift Wind Drift (MOA) Wind Drift (MILS)
0 960 460 -1.5 0 0 0 0 0
100 855 366 0 0 0 0 0 0
200 776 301 -46 22 6.4 0 0 0
300 708 251 -149.9 47.7 13.9 0 0 0
400 649 210 -323.5 77.2 22.5 0 0 0
500 594 177 -580 110.7 32.2 0 0 0


Range Velocity Energy
300, 900 to 950, 390 to 412, 217gr 44-40 correctly loaded for rifle use.

Ok so you’re saying 44-40 can be superior. When loaded PROPERLY. Properly meaning a rifle load and not a pistol loading.
In what exactly?
Accuracy?
Energy?
Velocity?

[BoBSavage]

Ok so you’re saying 44-40 can be superior. - All three - YES
When loaded PROPERLY. - YES
Properly meaning a rifle load and not a pistol loading. CORRECT

In what exactly? - RIFLE...to include the modern Winchester 73's

Accuracy? - YES
Energy? - YES, pending bullet weight, muzzle velocity and impact velocity at a given range.
Velocity? - YES, at longer distances. The 38-40 and 44-40 bullet profiles are a bit more aerodynamic than the typical 357-44 mag types.

You may have already noticed that Hornady dropped the bullet weights for the 45 Colt and 44 Magnum for their LeverRevolution loads. Again, it is about rifle vs revolver....and referring to rifle performance....and what the shooter is looking for in performance.

For a Winchester 73', my choices in order and why would be

Rifle-38-40 - flatter trajectory
Rifle-44-40 - long distance performance (300 yards)
Rifle-44 Magnum - longer distances (150 yards)- 225gr
Carbine-44 Magnum - up close and personal - 240gr
Carbine-45 Colt - up close but not as personal - 250gr
Carbine-357 Magnum - a slight extension of a handgun
Carbine-38 Special - plinking

[Michael J. Spangler]

You may have already noticed that Hornady dropped the bullet weights for the 45 Colt and 44 Magnum for their LeverRevolution loads. Again, it is about rifle vs revolver....and referring to rifle performance....and what the shooter is looking for in performance.

For a Winchester 73', my choices in order and why would be

Rifle-38-40 - flatter trajectory
Rifle-44-40 - long distance performance (300 yards)
Rifle-44 Magnum - longer distances (150 yards)- 225gr
Carbine-44 Magnum - up close and personal - 240gr
Carbine-45 Colt - up close but not as personal - 250gr
Carbine-357 Magnum - a slight extension of a handgun
Carbine-38 Special - plinking

Please quantify the 38-40 and 44-40 loads with bullet weights and velocity.

[BoBSavage]

Please quantify the 38-40 and 44-40 loads with bullet weights and velocity.

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