Which cartridge in 1873 and why?

[barnetmill]

Both 357 and 45 colt are fine cartridges for my purposes and while I favor the .45 colt, 357 brass and bullets are more economically obtained and I have a pile of .38 spl brass that can be reloaded to .357 velocities. But either are good working cartridges.
Too hard to get 25-20, 32-20, 38-40, or 44-40. Both ammo and components are not easy or cheap to find. .327 mag might be an interesting round.

[atfsux]

I'm incredibly biased because my family heirloom 1873 rifle that has been in the family since new in 1902 and which I got my first deer with is in .32-20, which is ballistically a .30Carbine, essentially. For me, I just can't imagine an 1873 in any other caliber.

But that said, I own both a Marlin CST (1894 action) in .357 that is a hoot and a half. (With the suppressor on it using .38 wadcutter target loads, it is mousefart quiet.) I also enjoy the hell out of my Puma saddle-ring .45LC carbine.

The 1873 is heavier than either of those, so it will absorb felt recoil a little better. Mine in .32-20 with a 24 inch octagon barrel is like shooting a .22! I imagine light .38 target loads in one would be equally pleasant.

[Chili]

The point of the thread was to choose one or the other option. Maybe give some pros and cons for one or the other.
Seems most people here would rather be without a gun than to have one in a non WCF cartridge.

But that is what internet people do...never answer the direct question, instead they hijack and force their opinion.

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[indian joe]

But that is what internet people do...never answer the direct question, instead they hijack and force their opinion.

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Really ?? .....I didnt realise you guys were that easily coerced

[Michael J. Spangler]

I’m going to start my next thread with a new twist. I think it will work.

[Jeff Michel]

I have both calibers in the 1873. I like both, taken deer with both. I think it would be difficult to choose one over the other.

[Griff]

I have 6 rifles in 45 Colt, 2 in .357. 3 of the 6 are toggle links, 2 1873s and a steel framed 1860. The oldest was made in 1986 and probably had ~250k round thru it. No signs of loosening yet. Mostly used for cowboy action, but also hunting. Hunting with mostly factory loads, but also a few handloads (240 HPs @ ~950 fps). Action is plenty strong for both... I mean, it IS available in 44Mag.

[RyanJames170]

my pick is 45 colt, it will do anything i need a pistol caliber carbine to do, if i need more gun i will bring more gun..

[Chili]

Really ?? .....I didnt realise you guys were that easily coerced

"You guys"? I make my own opinions without coercion.

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[BoBSavage]

Seems most people here would rather be without a gun than to have one in a non WCF cartridge.

Pretty much...like everyone else, if it is not available in the cartridge each prefers, I just assume get a .303, 30-30, 270 or a 30-06.

45 Colt/357 Mag/38 Spl

1. If one prefers to shoot anything at 25 yards or less such as Mousefart or Speed Action Shooting, either is perfect. The 45 works with the revolvers and rifles, of which the revolver is king. Many choose the 357 for shooting the poop poop 38 loads, thus the 357 model. For actual "Cowboy Action Shooting", one should actually choose a dash cartridge for rifles...or it really isn't cowboy cartridge shooting...i.e. 1873-1892 (Winchester 73', Winchester 92', Colt cartridge revolvers, Remington cartridge revolvers, etc.), without the dash cartridges...and namely black powder loads until 1895.
2. Shooting out to 100 yards starts the limits. The 32-20, 38-40 and 44-40 are actually rifle cartridges, while the others are pistol cartridges.
3. Shooting black powder in the 45 leaves much crud in the action, hindering accuracy...but at 25 yards....well...
4. The .45 caliber is not a pistol caliber, it is available in many options for both revolver (45 Colt pistol cartridge) and rifle (45-70 rifle cartridge).
5. The 38-40 and 44-40 are not pistol calibers, they are both "pistol sized" rifle cartridges, unlike the 45 Colt 357 Magnum and 38 special.

I have a Marlin 1894 chambered for 357 Mag. I use it as a varmint rifle at close distances.


The opinions can keep going on forever and ever, and in any direction.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Pretty much...like everyone else, if it is not available in the cartridge each prefers, I just assume get a .303, 30-30, 270 or a 30-06.

45 Colt/357 Mag/38 Spl

1. If one prefers to shoot anything at 25 yards or less such as Mousefart or Speed Action Shooting, either is perfect. The 45 works with the revolvers and rifles, of which the revolver is king. Many choose the 357 for shooting the poop poop 38 loads, thus the 357 model. For actual "Cowboy Action Shooting", one should actually choose a dash cartridge for rifles...or it really isn't cowboy cartridge shooting...i.e. 1873-1892 (Winchester 73', Winchester 92', Colt cartridge revolvers, Remington cartridge revolvers, etc.), without the dash cartridges...and namely black powder loads until 1895.
2. Shooting out to 100 yards starts the limits. The 32-40, 38-40 and 44-40 are actually rifle cartridges, while the others are pistol cartridges.
3. Shooting black powder in the 45 leaves much crud in the action, hindering accuracy...but at 25 yards....well...
4. The .45 caliber is not a pistol caliber, it is available in many options for both revolver (45 Colt pistol cartridge) and rifle (45-70 rifle cartridge).
5. The 38-40 and 44-40 are not pistol calibers, they are both "pistol sized" rifle cartridges, unlike the 45 Colt 357 Magnum and 38 special.

I have a Marlin 1894 chambered for 357 Mag. I use it as a varmint rifle at close distances.


The opinions can keep going on forever and ever, and in any direction.

Ok I can see calling them rifle cartridges but for all intents and purposes they are very close to the performance you can get with modern magnum pistol cartridges.

Even the HV 44 WCF was running a 200 grain at 1500 or so FPS from a rifle. That’s not hard for 44 mag and I bet you could get a 357 up there with a 200 grain.

Designed for rifle but just like the WSL cartridges there were anemic compared to the common rifle cartridges of the time.

This isn’t to discredit them but to say that they’re rifle cartridge so they belong there doesn’t hold much water when they’re rifle cartridges by name alone.

[BoBSavage]

Ok I can see calling them rifle cartridges but for all intents and purposes they are very close to the performance you can get with modern magnum pistol cartridges.

Even the HV 44 WCF was running a 200 grain at 1500 or so FPS from a rifle. That’s not hard for 44 mag and I bet you could get a 357 up there with a 200 grain.

Designed for rifle but just like the WSL cartridges there were anemic compared to the common rifle cartridges of the time.

This isn’t to discredit them but to say that they’re rifle cartridge so they belong there doesn’t hold much water when they’re rifle cartridges by name alone.

Not exactly.

First you threw in the 44 Mag, not part of your original question! And now we are adding a 200gr 357?

From what I can find the HV 44 WCF factory loads were not accurate beyond 100 yards, only the black powder loads were "accurate" to beyond 150 yards or so. It depends on your definition of accurate.

Townsend Whelen listed the following in 1920. Can the 45 Colt , 357 pistol cartridges match any of these power and distance loads?


CLASS A

2 INCHES AT 100 YARDS
4 INCHES AT 200 YARDS

280 Ross
30 cal Model 1906
30-40 Krag and Winchester
30 cal Model 1903
256 Mannlicher Schoenauer
25-35 WCF (in single shot)

CLASS B

2 1/2 INCHES AT 100 YARDS
6 INCHES AT 200 YARDS

7 mm Mauser
8 mm Mauser
32 Ideal
303 British
303 Savage
25-35 Rem Auto (*)
25-35 Marlin
25-30 WCF Low pressure smokeless
25-20 Single Shot
25-21 Stevens
25-25 Stevens
28-30 Stevens
22 Long Rifle (in target rifle)

CLASS C

3 INCHES AT 100 YARDS
8 INCHES AT 200 YARDS

30-30 WCF
35 Rem Auto
35 WCF 405 WCF
45-70 Black and Smokeless
32-40 Low pressure smokeless
33 WCF
32 Winchester Self Loading
32-20
25 Rimfire
38-55
22-15 Stevens

CLASS D

3 1/2 INCHES AT 100 YARDS
12 INCHES AT 200 YARDS

32 Win Special
351 Win Self Loading
351 Self Loading
32 Rem Auto (*)
45-70
45 90 HV (1)
25-20 HV and Black powder
32-20 HV (1)
38 WCF (1)
44 WCF (1)
401 Win Self Loading (2)

(1) Over 200 yards grouping is irregular
(2) Over 150 yards grouping is irregular Many black powder rifles listed in
(*) Rem Auto cartridges will show equal accuracy in Remington or Stevens rifles. Classes B and C will rank in Class A when used with hand loaded ammunition loaded by an expert


He also noted the following along with that data;

"THE ACCURACY OF HUNTING RIFLES

Below I have grouped certain of our more common rifles under several heads as regards accuracy, showing the diameter of the circle into which they can be relied upon to shoot all or nearly all of their shots at 100 and 200 yards. These data were arrived at from five or more carefully pulled groups of ten shots shot from rest at the ranges named. In a number of cases a telescope sight was used to make certain of the aim, and in the others an English orthoptic was used with open sights.

[barnetmill]

Pretty much...2. Shooting out to 100 yards starts the limits. The 32-40, 38-40 and 44-40 are actually rifle cartridges, while the others are pistol cartridges.
3. Shooting black powder in the.......... in any direction.

I believe you mean 32-20. 32-40 but then again I am not sure since was not really following everything. The two are very different.


44-40, 38-40, 32-20, and 25-20 in order as in the photo



The middle cartridge is a 32-40 and there might be more than one version of a 32-40. But it would not work in a winchester 1873 or 1892 for obvious reasons.

A picture of the .32-40 Ballard cartridge between two more common rifle cartridges, the .223 Remington on the left and the .270 Winchester on the right.

[Frank V]

Well, if someone offered it as a gift I’d pick the .357. It would have mild recoil, probably be accurate, components available & inexpensive (compared to other ctgs.) & would be fun to shoot!

[Michael J. Spangler]

Not exactly.

First you threw in the 44 Mag, not part of your original question! And now we are adding a 200gr 357?

From what I can find the HV 44 WCF factory loads were not accurate beyond 100 yards, only the black powder loads were "accurate" to beyond 150 yards or so. It depends on your definition of accurate.

Townsend Whelen listed the following in 1920. Can the 45 Colt , 357 pistol cartridges match any of these power and distance loads?


CLASS A

2 INCHES AT 100 YARDS
4 INCHES AT 200 YARDS

280 Ross
30 cal Model 1906
30-40 Krag and Winchester
30 cal Model 1903
256 Mannlicher Schoenauer
25-35 WCF (in single shot)

CLASS B

2 1/2 INCHES AT 100 YARDS
6 INCHES AT 200 YARDS

7 mm Mauser
8 mm Mauser
32 Ideal
303 British
303 Savage
25-35 Rem Auto (*)
25-35 Marlin
25-30 WCF Low pressure smokeless
25-20 Single Shot
25-21 Stevens
25-25 Stevens
28-30 Stevens
22 Long Rifle (in target rifle)

CLASS C

3 INCHES AT 100 YARDS
8 INCHES AT 200 YARDS

30-30 WCF
35 Rem Auto
35 WCF 405 WCF
45-70 Black and Smokeless
32-40 Low pressure smokeless
33 WCF
32 Winchester Self Loading
32-20
25 Rimfire
38-55
22-15 Stevens

CLASS D

3 1/2 INCHES AT 100 YARDS
12 INCHES AT 200 YARDS

32 Win Special
351 Win Self Loading
351 Self Loading
32 Rem Auto (*)
45-70
45 90 HV (1)
25-20 HV and Black powder
32-20 HV (1)
38 WCF (1)
44 WCF (1)
401 Win Self Loading (2)

(1) Over 200 yards grouping is irregular
(2) Over 150 yards grouping is irregular Many black powder rifles listed in
(*) Rem Auto cartridges will show equal accuracy in Remington or Stevens rifles. Classes B and C will rank in Class A when used with hand loaded ammunition loaded by an expert


He also noted the following along with that data;

"THE ACCURACY OF HUNTING RIFLES

Below I have grouped certain of our more common rifles under several heads as regards accuracy, showing the diameter of the circle into which they can be relied upon to shoot all or nearly all of their shots at 100 and 200 yards. These data were arrived at from five or more carefully pulled groups of ten shots shot from rest at the ranges named. In a number of cases a telescope sight was used to make certain of the aim, and in the others an English orthoptic was used with open sights.

I’m not saying the 44 can match up to his rifle cartridges but neither can the 44 WCF.

200 grain 357 is totally doable.
http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLyman358627.htm

[BoBSavage]

I got in a hurry and you are correct. My reference should have been for the 32-20, 38-40 and 44-40, that could be used in both revolver and rifle.

I have been dealing with the 32-40, 38-55, 30-30, 303 Savage and 30-40 Krag (.30 U.S. Army)...so I had 32-40 on the brain! I will correct it.

[BoBSavage]

I’m not saying the 44 can match up to his rifle cartridges but neither can the 44 WCF.

200 grain 357 is totally doable.
http://www.lasc.us/FryxellLyman358627.htm

You lost me there, my apologies. The 44 WCF can't match up to who's rifle cartridge?

[Michael J. Spangler]

You lost me there, my apologies. The 44 WCF can't match up to who's rifle cartridge?

I meant the rifle cartridges that you had listed above. The real rifle cartridges.

Just reinforcing that the 44 WCF though listed as a rifle cartridge is really on par with the modern handgun cartridges in a lever gun.

Yes the 32-40 is a completely different animal.

[BoBSavage]

I meant the rifle cartridges that you had listed above. The real rifle cartridges.

Just reinforcing that the 44 WCF though listed as a rifle cartridge is really on par with the modern handgun cartridges in a lever gun.

Yes the 32-40 is a completely different animal.

Actually it is not when loaded correctly, the way it was loaded prior to the 1950's. The 38-40 and 44-40 will out perform any typical pistol cartridge chambered in a rifle at distances greater between 125 yards and 300 yards. This would be the 357 Magnum, 45 Colt and the 44 Magnum. The 38-40 and 44-40 HV loads were not accurate at all past 75 to 100 yards, but the 1,300fps black powder and smokeless rifle loads were. The powders at the time that allowed the 38 and 44 dash cartridges to perform were Black Powder, Dupont No. 2 smokeless and Sharpshooter smokeless powders...followed by Dupont No. 80 smokeless sporting rifle powder. Modern rifle smokeless powders such as 4227, 2400, 4198, a few other out dated powders and Reloder 7, all allow the 38 and 44 cartridges to be a bit more accurate at longer distances. It has to do with powder burn rates and the cartridge/bullet design. If the 180gr to 215gr flat base bullets can not get at least 1,300fps at the muzzle, they are basically worthless at 300 yards. Heavier bullets are needed at those distances and greater such as the 300-400gr 45-70 types...etc.

This is why the 30-30 and .303 Savage was introduced to the civilian market in 1895. While other smokeless rifle cartridges were introduced over the years, the 30-30 (1895) and the 30-06 (1906), are two of the earliest rifle cartridges that remain popular. The 45-70 is also popular, but remains more of a brush gun, than used for what it was originally designed.

Trajectory is where it's all at now days. If trajectory is not flat for 300 yards (4" to 6"),...and hardly affected by windage...folks can't hit the backside of a barn with it!

The key factor for a good rifle cartridge, is the powder burn rate. Pistol powders just won't cut it, nor are the 38-40 and 44-40 cartridges when loaded with pistol powders.

Sharpe even mentions such in 1937 regarding the 32-20, 38-40 and 44-40;

The handloader must bear in mind, however, that this cartridge is adapted to both rifle and handgun and must be loaded accordingly. Powder that burns well in the rifle barrel will not burn properly in the handgun barrel, and vice versa.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Actually it is not when loaded correctly, the way it was loaded prior to the 1950's. The 38-40 and 44-40 will out perform any typical pistol cartridge chambered in a rifle at distances greater between 125 yards and 300 yards. This would be the 357 Magnum, 45 Colt and the 44 Magnum. The 38-40 and 44-40 HV loads were not accurate at all past 75 to 100 yards, but the 1,300fps black powder and smokeless rifle loads were. The powders at the time that allowed the 38 and 44 dash cartridges to perform were Black Powder, Dupont No. 2 smokeless and Sharpshooter smokeless powders...followed by Dupont No. 80 smokeless sporting rifle powder. Modern rifle smokeless powders such as 4227, 2400, 4198, a few other out dated powders and Reloder 7, all allow the 38 and 44 cartridges to be a bit more accurate at longer distances. It has to do with powder burn rates and the cartridge/bullet design. If the 180gr to 215gr flat base bullets can not get at least 1,300fps at the muzzle, they are basically worthless at 300 yards. Heavier bullets are needed at those distances and greater such as the 300-400gr 45-70 types...etc.

This is why the 30-30 and .303 Savage was introduced to the civilian market in 1895. While other smokeless rifle cartridges were introduced over the years, the 30-30 (1895) and the 30-06 (1906), are two of the earliest rifle cartridges that remain popular. The 45-70 is also popular, but remains more of a brush gun, than used for what it was originally designed.

Trajectory is where it's all at now days. If trajectory is not flat for 300 yards (4" to 6"),...and hardly affected by windage...folks can't hit the backside of a barn with it!

The key factor for a good rifle cartridge, is the powder burn rate. Pistol powders just won't cut it, nor are the 38-40 and 44-40 cartridges when loaded with pistol powders.

Sharpe even mentions such in 1937 regarding the 32-20, 38-40 and 44-40;

The handloader must bear in mind, however, that this cartridge is adapted to both rifle and handgun and must be loaded accordingly. Powder that burns well in the rifle barrel will not burn properly in the handgun barrel, and vice versa.

Give me an example of a more modern load in a 44-40 made specifically for the rifle. I know savvyjack has done a lot of work with this to squeeze out a lot more performance.

I’m still not sure he could outperform a 44 magnum or a 45 Colt “magnumized”