Thinking about building an AR... What caliber?

[NavyVet1959]

Where do you live and shoot? A long range cartridge is not appropriate if you are lucky to even have 100 yd open areas.

Whatever you do, just make sure that you build it as a "handgun" initially so that you can convert the lower between handgun and rifle and back as you see fit.

My first one was a 5.56 and the second one was a .300 AAC. The .300 AAC has about the ballistics of a .30-30, so it might be an acceptable deer gun. There's been plenty of threads debating this on this site and others. Have fun reading through all of them.

[Jupiter7]

The 300blk actually has ballistics of 7.62x39, almost. With a 125gr in 30-30 I can break 2600fps, ain't gonna happen with the x39 or 300blk.

[NavyVet1959]

The 300blk actually has ballistics of 7.62x39, almost. With a 125gr in 30-30 I can break 2600fps, ain't gonna happen with the x39 or 300blk.

For the deers around here, a cast 240 gr 30 caliber bullet at 1000 fps would be enough at the ranges that I see them at. It's going to have the sectional density to punch a hole right through both lungs. The deer is not going to be going all that far after that. If you live somewhere that has decent size deer, your mileage may vary. Although the .300 AAC would probably be good for many of the hogs that I see, I carry a .45-70 instead. I like to know that I brought enough gun with me, just in case.

[Arisaka99]

I live in the mountains in central VA. I may have an in to go shoot coyotes in the Shenandoah though, and that is rolling hills. I haven't secured any deer hunting land yet either, so it's a nonissue. In VA we have to use a .23 caliber or larger rifle, so the .223 is not an option to deer hunt either, sadly. I'm thinking I'll probably do like most said and go with a 5.56 and get a .223 Wylde upper and maybe a 6.5 Grendel or .300Blk.

A buddy built a really nice 300Blk rifle and I got to shoot it. Been wanting one ever since.

[Arisaka99]

How would you build as a handgun to begin with, and then build a rifle? Am I just being dense? Haha

[dragon813gt]

How would you build as a handgun to begin with, and then build a rifle? Am I just being dense? Haha

Once a rifle, always a rifle. The issue arises in how the lower is written up on the 4473. Mine are all written up as "other" since according to the PA State Police a lower can not be registered as a handgun. Now if I was buying a factory pistol AR that lower would be registered as a handgun. We have a separate form to fill out for handguns in PA. As always do your own research. But the BATFE says it's okay to go from pistol to rifle(not SBR unless you have the stamp) and back.

[Arisaka99]

I looked it up right after I replied. So build a pistol first, then build a rifle. That is smart.

[NavyVet1959]

Once a rifle, always a rifle.

Actually, according to the ATF, it's if it starts as a rifle, it must stay as a rifle, but if it starts as a handgun, you can go back and forth as needed.

[NavyVet1959]

I looked it up right after I replied. So build a pistol first, then build a rifle. That is smart.

It's just a technicality, but it's one that is easy to accomplish, so it's not a big deal.

When you are building it, do not put a stock on it, just leave the buffer tube there. At that point it is classified as a handgun even if you were to have a long barrel on it. Take it to the range and shoot it some. It's now officially a handgun even if you go back home and install the stock on it. The main thing that this does for you is allow you to put a short barrel on it and as long as you don't have a stock on it at the same time, you don't have to register it as a SBR.

For those who think that a handgun MUST have less than a 16" barrel, please show me the ruling from the ATF that says that. I have never been able to find such a ruling. In fact, Uberti even makes a revolver with an 18" barrel -- their 1873 Colt Buntline.

[Jupiter7]

It's just a technicality, but it's one that is easy to accomplish, so it's not a big deal.

When you are building it, do not put a stock on it, just leave the buffer tube there. At that point it is classified as a handgun even if you were to have a long barrel on it. Take it to the range and shoot it some. It's now officially a handgun even if you go back home and install the stock on it. The main thing that this does for you is allow you to put a short barrel on it and as long as you don't have a stock on it at the same time, you don't have to register it as a SBR.

For those who think that a handgun MUST have less than a 16" barrel, please show me the ruling from the ATF that says that. I have never been able to find such a ruling. In fact, Uberti even makes a revolver with an 18" barrel -- their 1873 Colt Buntline.

not quite. Using a standard collapsible buffer tube that would readily allow a stock to be attached with a short barrel would be a big no-no. A pistol must not be readily available to attach a stock. Pistol AR is best left as a pistol or in pistol configuration til Form 1 comes back approved. I have one pistol marked lower that was transferred as a semi-automatic handgun and will stay that way. Legally here, a pistol can be loaded during transport, as a rifle can't be chambered during transport it makes it a very handy tool. We can't hunt with SBR's here, but rifle caliber pistol is legal. Stupid...

[NavyVet1959]

not quite. Using a standard collapsible buffer tube that would readily allow a stock to be attached with a short barrel would be a big no-no. A pistol must not be readily available to attach a stock. Pistol AR is best left as a pistol or in pistol configuration til Form 1 comes back approved. I have one pistol marked lower that was transferred as a semi-automatic handgun and will stay that way. Legally here, a pistol can be loaded during transport, as a rifle can't be chambered during transport it makes it a very handy tool. We can't hunt with SBR's here, but rifle caliber pistol is legal. Stupid...

Could you show where the ATF has made that as a ruling/opinion? Many of the pistol ARsb use the same buffet tube as the one with the collapsible stock. The Uberti above could be quickly converted from what I can tell by just replacing the grips with a grip/shoulder stock. Some people even like the original longer buffer tube from the fixed stock since it gives them a better cheek weld as it sits over the top of the shoulder. The main advantage of the AR platform is that it is so configurable no matter how strange your tastes might be.

[dragon813gt]

How do you plan on proving to the BATFE that you fired it in pistol configuration first? This is a slippery slope w/out documentation. If the lower was not listed as "handgun" or "other" on the 4473 I would not risk configuring it as a pistol. We all know the BATFE doesn't make rules that are clear.

[NavyVet1959]

How do you plan on proving to the BATFE that you fired it in pistol configuration first? This is a slippery slope w/out documentation. If the lower was not listed as "handgun" or "other" on the 4473 I would not risk configuring it as a pistol. We all know the BATFE doesn't make rules that are clear.

Last I heard it was still "innocent until proven guilty".

Mine were listed as "other" though.

[dkf]

Could you show where the ATF has made that as a ruling/opinion? Many of the pistol ARsb use the same buffet tube as the one with the collapsible stock. The Uberti above could be quickly converted from what I can tell by just replacing the grips with a grip/shoulder stock. Some people even like the original longer buffer tube from the fixed stock since it gives them a better cheek weld as it sits over the top of the shoulder. The main advantage of the AR platform is that it is so configurable no matter how strange your tastes might be.

No, pistol and carbine (for a stock) buffer tubes are completely different. Guys don't put rifle buffer tubes for an A2 stock on pistol lowers both due to size and it is designed to fit a rifle stock.

The Uberti above has a barrel 16" or longer and would be over 26" OAL if a stock were put on it.

[Jupiter7]

Last I heard it was still "innocent until proven guilty".

Mine were listed as "other" though.

Sad part is Is they don't play by the rules. Intent is enough for them and more trouble than I'm comfortable dealing with. Best to err on the safe side.

[dkf]

Sad part is Is they don't play by the rules. Intent is enough for them and more trouble than I'm comfortable dealing with. Best to err on the safe side.

That and they make their own rules as they see fit. Plus, thanks to SCOTUS they don't even have to let us know before they make the changes.

[NavyVet1959]

No, pistol and carbine (for a stock) buffer tubes are completely different. Guys don't put rifle buffer tubes for an A2 stock on pistol lowers both due to size and it is designed to fit a rifle stock.

Actually, people have used all the different types of buffer tubes for AR handguns. It's a matter of whatever is convenient. If you start out with a 16" barrel for your AR handgun, there is no way that the ATF would have an issue for it even if you had a rifle stock that fit your buffer. The reason for this is that there is no way they could claim "constructive intent" since without the stock, it's a legal handgun and with the stock, it's a legal rifle. There is no way that you could make a SBR out of it. Now, if you started out with a short barrel, you would have a be a bit more careful to ensure that at no time during the conversion from pistol to rifle did you have something that might require registration under the NFA.

This has been discussed on AR15.com and one of the guys there even got a letter from the ATF.
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.ht...f=122&t=483410



The think is, anyone who has customized their AR a bit will have enough spare parts that they could technically build a SBR if they were so inclined. When I built my .300 AAC AR pistol, it was more of a case of me looking for something else in my gun safe and realizing that I nearly had enough spare parts to build another AR, so I did it. I still have a fair assortment of AR parts, but not enough to complete another one ... yet ...

[dragon813gt]

Last I heard it was still "innocent until proven guilty".

Mine were listed as "other" though.

I'm asking as a serious question. Do you think the BATFE plays by those rules? I know they don't and you will be guilty into proven innocent. Better to not play around w/ constructive intent, when it comes to pistols, unless the lower has been transferred to you as a "handgun" or "other". It's going to take a lot of money to fight the government and no one wants to go through that.

[dkf]

Actually, people have used all the different types of buffer tubes for AR handguns. It's a matter of whatever is convenient. If you start out with a 16" barrel for your AR handgun, there is no way that the ATF would have an issue for it even if you had a rifle stock that fit your buffer. The reason for this is that there is no way they could claim "constructive intent" since without the stock, it's a legal handgun and with the stock, it's a legal rifle. There is no way that you could make a SBR out of it. Now, if you started out with a short barrel, you would have a be a bit more careful to ensure that at no time during the conversion from pistol to rifle did you have something that might require registration under the NFA.

This has been discussed on AR15.com and one of the guys there even got a letter from the ATF.
http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.ht...f=122&t=483410




The think is, anyone who has customized their AR a bit will have enough spare parts that they could technically build a SBR if they were so inclined. When I built my .300 AAC AR pistol, it was more of a case of me looking for something else in my gun safe and realizing that I nearly had enough spare parts to build another AR, so I did it. I still have a fair assortment of AR parts, but not enough to complete another one ... yet ...

Read the last part of the letter. In other words if you are in possession of a rifle stock and have a rifle buffer tube on your AR pistol you are in violation unless the receiver is registered as an SBR. Since pretty much everyone whom owns an AR pistol owns at least one AR rifle and rifle stocks it is kind of a pointless thing to argue. Besides that is an old letter and the ATF changes their minds more than underwear.

[NavyVet1959]

Read the last part of the letter. In other words if you are in possession of a rifle stock and have a rifle buffer tube on your AR pistol you are in violation unless the receiver is registered as an SBR. Since pretty much everyone whom owns an AR pistol owns at least one AR rifle and rifle stocks it is kind of a pointless thing to argue. Besides that is an old letter and the ATF changes their minds more than underwear.

If you have a more recent letter to cite (either for or against this), feel free to post a link to it.

To have an SBR, you have to start off with a barrel less than 16". If you start out with a barrel GREATER than 16", then it doesn't matter whether you have a stock or not since the only two configurations that you could create with that stock that is in your spare parts bin is a handgun or a rifle.

Most people that I know who have AR handguns started off with the buffer tube from the M4 collapsible stock because it was often cheaper to buy the buffer tube plus stock in the kit form than it was to buy just a buffer tube alone. Yeah, doesn't make sense, but it sometimes works out that way. They then put either a piece of foam over it or a rubber tip.

If the ATF wants to start claiming that having a spare stock in your your spare parts bin is the equivalent of intent to create a SBR if you have an AR handgun, then they would also have to say that about those people who own both an AR handgun and an AR rifle since it is a simple matter to take the stock off one and put it on the other or for that matter, take the upper off the pistol and put it on the rifle.