Weighed vs. Metered charges?

[Boz330]

Good point. Swiss BP weighs 10% more per volume than Goex. I usually try to remember to qualify by weight or volume for that reason.

Bob

[Black Prince]

It is incumbundant on those who use volume as the measurement method to say so because when you say 70 grains, it is assumed to be a weighed measurement. That is the standard unit of measurement, not volume. If you use volume as the unit of measurement, the statement should be 70 grains by volume. But as we know, many people do not go by standards any more and many more do not even know that there are standards. We can thank our wonderful government run schools for that.

I'm looking in Keith's Gun Notes for that dern article about the comparison of weighed and charges thrown by volume. I'll run it down fer you boys yet. I found it right interestin' since the ole man knew a thing or two about shooting and loading.

[Black Prince]

Wal dang it, I looked in both volumes of Gun Notes and in Hell I Was There lass night and couldn't find it. I'll look in Sixguns tonight.

[martinibelgian]

My opinion? a grain is a WEIGHT measurement, not a volume measurement - if you talk volume, don't talk grains, because you still use the scales to set your volume measurement. I load by volume with a RCBS Uniflow, and use the settings on the micrometric adjustment as reference mark - so I load 2 drops of the '8' setting in my #2 Musket. Depending on lot or brand of powder, that corresponds with something between 79 (TPPH) and 84 (Latest lot of Swiss 1 1/2Fg) grs in weight. But I always load the same volume...

[McLintock]

In the article I quoted above, by Dick Trenk, he talked about the differences between scale weight and volume weight. He said that a 62.0 gr settled charge of Swiss 1.5, in his adjustable measure, would weigh 72.7 grs on his electronic scale; quite a difference. So, when talking about powder charges, it should definitely be specified what kind of charge you're talking about.
McLintock

[Black Prince]

That there are differences in scale weighed and volume charges is and has been known for about as long as men have been shooting powder in rifles. That those two units of measurement are differentiated by nomenclature and termonology is commonly known and understood. You CAN NOT say I shoot 70 grains of FF-G Goex in my rifle when you are refering to a volume measurement, and if you do, you are WRONG!

70 grains is a weight unit of measurement. It is NOT a volume unit of measurement and the two terms CAN NOT be used interchangably. Most people who ever bothered to read a loading manual know all about this and ALWAYS say "by volume" when referring to a volume unit of measurment since the weighed unit is standard. Anytime you deviate from the standard, YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE for telling everyone since they are thinking in standard terms like most rational people usually do.

This is a soultion to a non-existant problem for everyone except newbie reloaders, and those who never took basic inorganic chemistry where you had to know units of measurement. That some gun writer has discovered this and wrote an article about it is ANOTHER example of the dufusess now pretending to be gun writers. Once upon a time gun writers actually had to have experience BEFORE they started earning a living as a gun writer. But that all changed with Jack O'Connor and so today we have these "pretend" writers. Next thing you know they are gonna discover that rifles actually make noise and write an article about the need for ear protection.

[montana_charlie]

You CAN NOT say I shoot 70 grains of FF-G Goex in my rifle when you are refering to a volume measurement, and if you do, you are WRONG!

Take a deep breath, Prince.

Now that you are more relaxed, picture the average guy with his new muzzle loader. He has bought the 'accessory package' to go with it, and contained therein is an adjustable powder measure...a volumetric one.

As he pulls the inner part down, out of the outer part, little numbered lines align with the bottom edge of the outer sleeve. His instruction sheet tells him that the line marked '70' means "70 grains". He is very thankful for that explanation, because (otherwise) he will only be able to tell his friends that his powder charge is "70". When they ask, "70 what?" he would only be able to say, "70 I don't knows."

You and I know that the '70 grains' thrown by his measure will not weigh 70 grains on a scale. The difference comes from the fact that his measure is calibrated in 'water grains'. A grain weight of water (water being denser than powder) will have less volume than an equal weight of powder would require.
(Ever see a guy complain because his .45/70 case won't hold 70 grains of powder? You could say, "True, Grasshopper, but it will hold 70 grains of water. and that's why it's called a 70-grain case.")

The point of all of this, in an effort to keep you breathing easy, is to say that for some guys using a term like '70 grains' is most natural...even if they are talking about a volume-measured charge. Why? Because 'grains' is what the lines on the measure are supposed to represent.

Since almost everybody running loose and shooting guns during the early days was using volume devices to measure their powder...and since Sharps (for example) was using the same system when producing metallic cartridge ammunition...it may be more proper to refer to 'water grains' as 'grains' when the subject is black powder.
However, since all of us are so modern, now...and because most of us also deal with smokeless powders which MUST be specified in 'scale grains'...we get fooled when somebody doesn't alert us to the fact that the 'grains' he is talking about are the 'water grains' thrown by a volumetric measure.

(A caveat...That comment I made about the system used by Sharps is an assumption. I'm not an historian, so I may have that wrong...but it seems logical.)

CM

P.S. And, Oh Yeah...about Dick Trenk!
He is the US rep for Pedersoli. So, he knows a lot about their guns, and he does a lot of shooting...making him better equipped to handle questions from customers.

I don't know how well he shoots, but he knows a fair amount about the subject.

CM

[Don McDowell]

I got to wondering about this muzzleloader powder measure business once, and checked. Both my Ted Cash powder measure and the elcheapo made in the famous ol blacksmith TAiwans shop and sold at Kmart, threw charges of 2f Goex reasonably close to what the setting said they would.

[Black Prince]

Well fellas, all I am gonna say about this business is that once I was called out on a coroners jury because I owned a little gun and reloading shop, was a former deputy sheriff, and knew all the local law dogs, so they came and got me to serve. We went over to the coroners office and here was a young guy about 17 or 18 with half his face blown off. It was opening day of muzzle loading season in Mississippi. Our "case" lying on the slab, had managed to kill himself trying to shoot a muzzle loader.

The facts were that he had bought his rifle, powder and everything he needed, in a "complete kit" from Wal-Mart the evening before. He took it home, loaded it up, but we don't know how or with what, and took it hunting the next morning. Apparently he saw a deer and shot at it, the resulting blast killing him. His blown up rifle was there in the room too. The game warden had found it near the body, or he found pieces of it. Taking a deep breath is what it is all about, but it's dam difficult to breathe with half your head missing.

I don't know if the "case" didn't know weight measurement from volume measurement, but I do know that he was as dead as they come. This stuff is serious and it can kill you or some unsuspecting innocent standing beside you. It is therefore somewhat important that people actually KNOW what they are doing and what they are saying when it comes to loading and measuring powder. Or at least, it could have been important to the young man lying on the slab in the coroners office that day. As it was, it wasn't important to him anymore.

It is those kinds of things that cause me to say that if you don't know what you are doing or talking about regarding powder measurement, you might want to find out.

It could be important to you.