I'm looking for something that will be not-quite-as-nasty to clean. I have a Zouave and a Musketoon, and I hate cleaning both of them.
CDD
I'm looking for something that will be not-quite-as-nasty to clean. I have a Zouave and a Musketoon, and I hate cleaning both of them.
CDD
Remember when using triple 777 you have to start with a 15 percent reduce load
Example 100 grains of BP or pyrodex + triple 777 charge is 85 grains.
I have used triple 777 and I can say the powder cleans up fast ,no-were near the mess of BP.
I can also say I have shot 120 grains of pyrodex select in my t/c inlines with a 350 grain bullet and to me recoil is not bad
Now with the triple 777 powder I will not go past 85 grain ,recoil is sharp
The powder is a real fast burning powder seem more like shooting a 12 ga. shot gun with 3 inch: mag shells
..........Personally I haven't used any 777 at all. I do know that this year at the range, those using MLer's getting ready for deer season (mostly inlines) that 777 has made a big appearance. Used to be Pyrodex containers, bench after bench. Now half of'em have 777 sitting there.
I know a couple guys whose hunting loads were like 130grs Pyro RS and one who used 130 Pyro P. These were all sabot shooters. I don't know what they were using for a charge with 777 but I'll bet it was less! I too have heard it was hotter.
.............Buckshot
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I used to use Pyrodex Select, but now use nothing but 777 . Using 90 gns of 777 powder in my Hawken instead of 100 gns of Pyrodex, I got tighter groups at a higher velocity. I use two 50 grn pellets in my inline and have been very happy with the results. 777 does seem to clean up a little better than Pyrodex, but not significantly (I have never used BP).
Wow, I just can't believe someone has never used blackpowder. Unimmaginable.
I've used 777 in my inline Thompson and it definately resounded with a "crack" rather then the bp "boom". Kicked more too. Yes I reduced the charger 15% per instructions. It burns a tad cleaner then Pyrodex. I normally use Pyrodex Select. BP is very hard to get in my area or I'd use it, I love the stuff.
I'm still shaking my head over "never used bp".
Joe
When I wanted black powder, I could never find it locally so I had to always settle for pyrodex (I've only been shooting MLs since about 1994). Now that I'm not interested, it seems to pop up.
Both 777 and Pyrodex worry me. I've seen plenty in print from no less than Bill Knight who all say that these powders can have disasterous corrosive effects if any amonia is allowed to get into the bore. A prime case often cited is a guy fires a few rounds and swabs his bore with a damp patch. Then he figures to get down to some real cleaning later so he runs a Hoppes patch or Butche's bore cleaner down it and sets it aside to soak over night. Next day the barrel is ruined with rust. Evidently it can happen in just a few hours, four or less actually. Also, some claim Pyrodex is errosive to barrels.
The former I believe is well documented but the latter may just be bunk..I don't really know. This I do know though, BP cleans with water and doesn't destroy barrels over night. So, in BP firearms, I stick with it.
Pryodex is corrosive. Grind a piece of steel to bare metal, and flash a pile of BP, and a pile of Pyrodex. Put it away where it can attract moisture for a few weeks. Wash it off, and the Pyro side will be more corroded than the BP side.
Ric
That's true what you say of Pyrodex, but what importance is it? I mean you are suppose to clean your muzzleloader asap. You could say the same of corrosive military ammo, which basically the primer has the corrosive mixture. Bare some steel and somehow flash a military corrosive primer off on it and then a new modern primer and set it aside somewhere and see which corrodes first. I've shot Pyrodex for years and have zero problems or rust with the guns I've shot it out of. Is this a pitch for Pyrodex? No...I just happen to like BP better because it fun and it's what started the gun business.
Joe
I was thinking of trying 777, and was wondering how it performs in the cold damp weather?
Have you guys heard of the new Black Mag3?
Supoosed to be near zero fouling, but it's like $22 bucks a pound. I don't clean with water, I use FirePower FP-10 lube, as I know the inventor, and even BP gun writer Sam Fadala used it extensively with his Black Powder Rifles.
It nuetralizes fouling immediately, and makes clean up much easier. Plus I believe it improves accuracy. My BP arms are spotless.
Joe, my point is, that when Pyrodex appeared on the market, it was made to sound as though a person didn't need to clean the rifle after shooting, and some shooters still believe this. I don't know if they have a caveat on thier packaging about cleaning, or not. Just a word to the wise, was all.Originally Posted by StarMetal
And my point was this: DO NOT USE ANY SOLVENT CONTAINING AMONIA with either 777 or Pyrodex. It will destroy your barrel in as few as 4 hours time. Water and these two are OK. Letting them sit over night is most likely OK too. Just keep amonia out of them or you will have one heck of a mess real pronto-like.
R J TAlley
I used Pyrodex for a long time in my Hawkin and it is the devil to clean out. It takes several cleanings over days to get most of it out. I have not found any rust preventative or oil that will stop it from having some effect on the bore. I tried it in BPCR's and plugs of it would exit the muzzle and burn in the grass like flares.
Loose 777 in a traditional muzzle loader shoots terrible. You can not put any pressure at all on it or groups go to hell. It is very hard to detect when the ball just touches the powder and any variation in this will blow the accuracy. The pellets work real good in the inlines though and if I had an inline, these would be my preference. Friends come over to shoot so I get to try a lot of powders. I have not tried the pellets in my Hawkin because I have switched to Swiss Black and will never use anything else from now on. My other rifles are flinters so the fake stuff stays out of them too. Swiss FFFG in my cap and ball gives the best accuracy and velocity of any powder. It turns the Ruger into a magnum and thumps deer as good as the .44 mag.
All in all, Pyrodex is the dirtiest, hardest to clean and hardest on the bore powder ever made.
777 does NOT work in the cap and ball or BPCR's. Since it does not like any compression, not enough can be put in to make it work.
No one will ever make a powder as good as plain old black.
44man,
Well, as Jack Benny use to say, it's apparent you don't like Pyrodex. I too have used Pyrodex for alot of years. In my opinion it cleans out just about the same as BP. My BP firearms have set at times for a LONG time. I get zero rust. I have found that Pyrodex gets the highest velocity out of my Ruger cap n ball. Went you can prove to me that your Ruger gets 1300-1400 fps with a 240 gr bullet let us know. I just don't believe that Swiss BP turns it into a 44 mag. Far as 777, used that too. It is even more powerful then Pyrodex and just listening to the muzzle blast from it tells you something more is going on then Pyrodex and BP. Instead of the usual BOOM, it cracks like a high powered rifle. The only thing I can say negative about Pyrodex is I think it's more corrosive then BP.
Pyrodex is the only successful BP alternate that has made it into the market. Those others you hear about from time to time are not very good. One thing Pyrodex has over BP is it's classified as a different material and more places can sell it that don't want to put up with the hassle of BP regulations and licenses.
Again, I'm not a proponant of Pyrodex, as I'd much rather use BP because, well, I like it. We can't get BP easily in my area and we can't get enough fellows together to buy BP by the case to make it worth while.
Joe
It's funny. I tried 777 in cartridge and ML. The ignition in ML was not very quick. It BPCR, I got lots of velocity, that "crack" starmetal was refering to and according to my Chrony, a ton of velocity. Shoot, with a 530 Postel in a 45-90 case I was clocking 1575 fps. But, the variation was as much a 100 fps. I used Pyrodex too. I began using it in 77 or so and more recently in 2003-04. It works but it's not cheap, it doesn't give as consistant velocities as does BP and it is harder to clean the brass afterword. So, when Bill Knight published his findings on corrosian I switched back to BP and gave up on the subs.
R J Talley
omgb
Maybe my good results with 777 in my inline is because I'm using the 209 shotgun primer for ignition.
Joe
I think that the pellets might give better consistancy because the compression factor is always the same. I also suspect that 777 was designed with the in-line ML shooter in mind. PErhaps with BPCR I might have gotten bettter results with more experimentation but it was awful expensive in comparison to BP. Since I'd never be able to use it in comptetition there just wasn't much incentive to pursue it much further.
R J Talley
I have been searching for my chrono readings from the Ruger OA and can't find the 777 readings. I didn't fool with it much because of the high SD and poor accuracy. The more I added, the worse it got.
My velocity with Goex FFFG was 914 fps and with Swiss it was 1102 fps. 1102 fps is faster then I ever got with Pyrocrap too. If you claim 1200 to 1300, I don't know where you are getting it from! I don't remember 777 going that fast, so I will chrono it again and post. I do remember putting only enough in so the ball would touch it which reduced the velocity. Compressing it makes it go haywire. I compressed some in a cartridge and it completely crushed all the grains. Stuff was finer then FFFFG and if you are shooting it like that, you are really getting high pressures. That is the reason for high SD's. The stuff breaks.
The right size pellet for the C&B might work.
Swiss black powder cleans up so easy it is unreal. 2 wet patches in my BPCR and patches are white. Pyrodex takes 20 patches and the next day more black comes out. The stuff gets in the pores of the steel. I went to a shoot and forgot my corrosion spray. I was only an hour from home so I cleaned the gun and put it in the car and came right home. The stuff rusted all around the nipple and took off the brown. The bore had a film of rust too even though my bore cleaner had anti rust in it.
Goex is dirty but still cleans easier then Pyrocrap.
It makes no sense to cram a bunch of 777 in the C&B, crush it to get high velocity and not be able to hit anything. At least in a ML rifle, you can add more and avoid crushing it to get more speed and maintain accuracy. The best bet with the stuff is still the pellets. Trouble is that it is hard to ignite and the shotshell primers work the best. So the inline is where it excells.
I found some readings taken with Pyrocrap in a Remington buffalo hunter C&B with a 12" barrel. Using a 45 gr volume measure we got 1187 fps. Now how much do we deduct for the 7-1/2" Ruger barrel? And since most of you are using the 40 gr measure, how much more do we deduct? The SD was 32.5 and the MAD was 92.3 fps.
It looks to me like Swiss has it beat!
We also tried filling the cylinder right to the top and forcing in the ball. Velocity went down to 1096, SD 57.8 and MAD 40.1 fps. Yes, you can compress Pyrocap but not 777.
44man
Who claimed 1200-1300 fps? ...and in what, with what? Not I.
I've let my guns actually set for most the day after shooting Pyrodex and don't have ANY rust. I'm wondering if you got ahold of an experimental batch that got out of the plant by mistake.
As soon as I get somemore No 11 percussion caps I"ll be exprimenting again.
Joe
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