Please help with selecting alloy for cape buffalo with .577 NE. (585 FH)

[fredj338]

Hi Fredj338, How did your NF softs work on the buffalo? Those NF softs are really tough. Lots of pass-through's on plains game with them and one end to end with nice expansiion on a facing Wildebeeste with a 375 HH.
Thanks for the tip on water dropping #2.
Lots of phone books! Gotchya. In our area we mostly have those little thin phone books. I'll be getting in shape for hunting by just finding enough phone books! Brian

I could only say stunning. One was a heart shot thur the front of the chest. Skinners could not find it in the gut pile. The 2nd was 1/4 slightly away, the bullet went thru one lung, heart & lodged in the skin just behind the far shoulder, perfect mushroom. Both were DRT. The left is wetpack test @ 10yds, the right is from the buffalo @ about 60yds. My m70 will shoot 1" groups @ 100yds with the NF. I bought every bullet Mike had before he sold to ATK.

Both of my guides were not keen on solids for buff. Both carried solids in their rifles, but as charge stoppers. They felt the soft gave a better chance for DRT, no tracking or charge. I look forward to hearing about your hunt. I would love to go with a 450#2 & lead solids from a nice double. Maybe some day.

[WBG]

Frank V, I am sorry that i never replied to your post. I spaced it some how. Yes most rifles are too light for me. It's a trend set by gun manufacturers, I think. Our WW2 battle rifles were about 12 lbs with full mag and bayonet.
I weight my big rifles to 10-12 lbs. I weight the front/forend not the butt. I like weight forward. Holds real steady. Some day, when it gets too heavy I will just get someone to carry it. Simple.

My 577 NE is actually an 24 Ga. From Hell being made up by Ed Hubel. Very close to 577 NE. It will have a 29 inch bull barrel making it the same length as a bolt rifle with a 24 inch barrel. I am making a stock that is much more recoil friendly that the factory one. Rifle will weigh about 13 lbs. I cleaned the trigger up a bit and will install open sights from a TC Contender that will sit high on a rib to match my straight stock. The rear sight will be a long ways forward (Like a Baser S2) so that my old eyes can see it.

We are kindred spirits on the 375. I recently made up a 375 Ruger with a 26 inch heavy barrel out of a Tikka T3 action for clear cut hunting of moose. ( Haven't used it yet.)

Thanks for your post. I am still waiting on the rifle from Ed Hubel. Also, I have postponed my cape buffalo hunt till july 2017 to include my grandson who will be old enough to hunt a plains animal by then. I will keep you posted on my progress.

Also, since my last post I have casted some nice bullets using the advice of members here. Lead, tin, antimony, arsenic and copper. Heat treated. BNH about 20. ( Lee hardness tester.) Thanks to all. Brian

[WBG]

Hello Fredj338, Sorry for not replying to your post. I missed it somehow.
I fully agree; Stunning!! Those NF "softs" are tough and stable. I'll bet it had arrow-straght pennitrationas well. Thanks for the pictures. I have postponed the hunt till july 2017 so that I can include my grandson who will be old enough by they to hunt a plains game.

Also, I notice that the expansion on the wet pack bullet is is very close to the buff bullet. Consistant!.

Thanks again for the post and pictures. Brian

[Frank V]

Brian

Thanks for the reply, I actually sold a nice Win. mod. 70 Super Grade .458 because it was just too light & was starting to hurt me when I shot it. I probably should have had two mercury recoil reducers put in the butt & maybe all would have been well. I actually do like the .458, but now my good old .375 H&H & .45-70 Marlin take care of hunting Elk in the dark timber where Grizzlys hang out too!

I'm staying tuned to watch your results. Your .577/24ga sounds like an interesting project & I'll bet it flattens things properly. I also like the weight a bit forward on a rifle. I've looked at the Ruger 77 .375 Ruger, but I'm thinking it's just a bit light? Still the ballistics are right there with the good old .375 H&H Mag.
Thanks.

[WBG]

Hi Frank, using a router table, I hollow out the forend and fill it with a brass rod or lead shot epoxied in. (1/2 to 1 pound). Then I glass bed or float the barrel. This moves the balance forward and makes it much steadier to hold. (I am an old guy who is not so steady any more.) It helps hold the muzzle down in recoil as well.
Brian

[Frank V]

Brian that sounds like a great idea, & you could add just about what weight you wanted to.

[Hardcast416taylor]

If we are talking about a solid cast bullet. What would water quenched linotype do then?Robert

[WBG]

Hi Robert, Good question. I'm still the enthusiastic amateur here so I don't know but I will try it. Some might say that Lino has so much antimony that it migh be brittle. I am told that I should be looking for something around 21 bhn with some copper and arsenic in. I will try some lino this summer. I have about 5 lbs.
I have made some heat treated bullets of 94/3/3 with a bit of Cu and Sb in them that look perfect for hardness/toughness. I am still waiting for the rifle from the maker. Right now my bullet casting world is in slo-mo. Brian

[Bigslug]

Brian,

I have not been idle either in the month or so since your alloy threads went dormant. I've got a bit more data from the Altar of Sacrificial Milk Jugs for you to chew on.

The 130 grain .32-20 Martini shots I posted the slugs from on your Lyman #2 thread finally got chronographed and they are in the 1200 fps ballpark. Seven to nine jugs on those with wheel weight - either air or water cooled. Slightly more nose smoosh with the air cooled, but no expansion beyond bore diameter.

We also zapped a stack of jugs with an air-cooled wheelweight NOE 165 grain GC Ranch Dog flat point out of a .30-30 at about 1980 fps. This higher velocity was sufficient to mushroom some and take some metal shards off the nose, but it was still good for 6-7 jugs.

Of perhaps more relevant interest to you, Dad just got a BIG LFN mold from Veral for use in his assorted .45 caliber de-bisonizers. He's done his initial cast in 9 Brinnel 30-1,which gave him about 520 grains - though I think the mold is spec'd for 500 grain with wheelweight. I think it's inevitable that we'll line up jugs for it. What I'm mainly curious about for your purposes is how much of this equation is hardness, how much is initial shape, and how sectional density plays when subjected to changes in that. Hopefully, we'll be able to recover it, but even if we don't, that's data too.

As for the copper, I'm pretty ignorant of it's effects, but I've yet to see anything that makes me doubt that the usual holy trinity of casting ingredients would be up to the task of killing this cow. Guys shooting little bullets have to agonize over what they're made of a lot more than you do. Remember: binary alloys of under 12 BHN + bore diameters .50 cal and less + muzzle velocities of under 1400 fps = near extinction of American bison.

[Frank V]

I'm also of the opinion that a big heavy slug at moderate velocities will kill a lot of game & do it cleanly.

[WBG]

Yes, I believe the sheer mass of the 650gr. - 750 gr. bullet dwarfs other factors. Unfortunately I am stuck in the theoretical phase until my rifle gets here from the builder. Then I will build the stock.

My single purpose for this rifle is for cape buffalo. (I will however get a young pal to kill a moose with it and bring me the bullet.) And, I have only killed two cape buffalo bulls in my life. Now I think I am a big expert! (lol.) In my great wisdom, I have adopted "solid for first shot" school of thought and am looking for that kind of terminal performance in my cast bullet. But, as you and others are thinking, It probably doesn't matter much with this size of bullet. Being new to casting and a real tinkerer I want/like to control as many variables as I can. It's part of the hobby. Brian

[Ola]

Using the wet phonebooks as test material:

-let them soak in the water long enough! Maybe a week or so and you can be sure they are wet. Dry paper is way harder and will give unrealistic results.
-stack them up as tightly as possible -> the results of different tests can be compared more reliably. Some use car jack to really squeeze the phonebooks together.

[WBG]

In my area, Kamloops BC Canada, the phone books are the little ones. Thinner than a pocket book. I may never be able to collect enough of 'em to make a test box. I tried the hammer/anvil test on my bullets. Used a 24 ounce hammer and the bullets flatten slightly and do not crack, split or shatter. This is a good thing. I am getting cabin fever on this project as I am now waiting for my rifle to come. With importing, it is still 2 months out. Yikes.

PS. Mix is:
-10 lbs. Lyman # 2
-6 lbs. pure lead
-about .2% copper using copper sulphate.
-3 lbs. super hard #8 shot for the arsenic.
-Heat treated at 420 for one hour.
BHN is about 20, I think. (I am having a bit of trouble with my lee hardness tester. The spring seems to snag some how. I pollished the ends of the spring. maybe that helped. )
This mix, air cooled, will make a super nice expanding bullet. Has wide meplate. (Accurate mold.)

This mix is thanks to the all the good advice that I have received from you guys on this project. I think that this bullet will be perfect for cape buff when heat treated and will be a real hammer for everything else when air cooled.

Brian

[Ola]

Do you have any local news papers or printing presses? Ask them. Some times they print too many copies (or make a mistake in printing). They are more than clad to get rid of them.

[WBG]

Thanks Ola, Good idea! Never thought of that. Brian

[Frank V]

I have used 1/2gal milk cartons filled with water to test pistol bullets, but you'd probably need a half mile of them to capture the bullets you are testing?

[WBG]

Frank, That's what I think! Brian

[Frank V]

I'm staying tuned Brian, this is an interesting thread.
Thanks everyone who contributes.

[WBG]

Thanks Frank, This whole project is high adventure for me! I'm nearly 70yrs old and I'm just as excited as when I got my first deer rifle; a pre '64 1894 30-30- carbine. I was 12yrs old, I think. My dad took me hunting antelope near Steveville in southern Alberta. As I remember that was 1958. ( I still have the rifle.)
I was planning that my next Cape Buffalo hunt would be in 2017 when my grandson will be old enough to hunt a plains game animal. He will be 7 yrs. old. However I don't know if I can wait that long to use this new 24 ga From Hell on an appropriate game animal. I may charge over to Africa in 2016 by myself for a short buffalo hunt. That will be the great cast bullet moment for me. You will never hear the end of it.

Also, you make a good point. I went from knowing nothing about casting lead to producing a good high performance bullet, in a few weeks, thanks entirely to the help that I received from this site. Brian