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Thread: Put GC on PB?

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    I agree with CrazyMark and Felix. Having the boolit already in the die and perfectly aligned with the GC shank dia portion at the bottom would be a way I would trust to produce repeatable results. Actually, given a gently angled step from major to minor diameter, I don't see how it could mess up. A few years back, a friend and I made up a two-dia size die to bump the Lee C312-185-1R nose portion to the right dia for his rifle. Running the driving band portion into the minor dia was also no problem at all. A size die and heel post to match. Sounds simple to me.

    Scrounger's idea of a cutter to skin the heel band down to GC shank dia would work also, but how would alignment be maintained? This suggests the need for other pieces of tooling to accomplish that part. In the past, I tried to skin some .430s down by lightly chucking them in a drill chuck and holding a file against the heel band as they spun, to get the dia down. It worked, but precise consistency wasn't my forte. A collet would have been a huge improvement over a drill chuck, but t'was not to be.

    There is another low-cost low-tech gas checking technique for a Lyman 450 that worked well for me in the past, and it can be done on any flat base boolit that is several thousandths larger than the desired finished diameter. It involves a little machining, but only two pieces and doesn't use a conventional GC:

    1. Machine some round stock (half hard 4140 or grade 8 bolt?) so the OD is a close drop-in fit inside the die retaining nut on a Lyman 450. Bore and finish ream a hole through the center .001-.002 greater than finished boolit diameter, deeper than .38", .50" will do nicely. Cut the end off the stock .25 -.38" long. Chuck it up and smoothly radius the hole edges (.06 is plenty) for an easy start for the boolit on both sides. I used a burr knife and polished with 400 grit sand paper. You now have a very short "partial sizing die ring" with a hole radiused on both ends.

    2. Chuck up and counterbore the face of the Lyman die you plan to size with to .445 dia x .010 deep concentric within .003 with the sizer hole. I used .006 soft copper shim stock and this face will house the GC material in disk form centered on the sizer hole. Then, radius the entry hole on your sizer die (.010 approx), so tthe GC material will flow around it without being stretched much by going over an abrupt corner. How much is a matter of experimentation. It should provide enough resistance to smooth the shim stock onto the heel of the boolit without pleats and wrinkles, but not so much that the heel tears through it.

    3. Buy or make a 7/16 punch to punch disks out of the copper stock. I punched them against smooth end grain wood which was ash, I think. I expect harder woods will be better for this. Lead would also work. The disk edges should not have a pronounced radius, since the counterbore on the sizer is only .010 deep and they would be hard to center. Whatever wire edge they do have should face upward so they'll become ironed into the heel band and help hold the check on.

    Install the sizer in the 450. The way it works is put the copper disk in the counterbore of the sizing die, put the sizer ring on top and put the boolit heel in the hole and push the boolit through the ring and into the sizing die in one smooth motion, lube and eject. Remove the ring, center another disk on the sizer, replace the ring and you're ready to go again. The downward force exerted by forcing the boolit through the ring is to hold the ring against the sizer, keeping the disk flat rather than allowing it to bunch up into a "cupcake paper" and be wrinkly around the boolit heel. Depending on the as-cast dia, sometimes they did wrinkle up a bit, but I could tell no difference in performance. I also tried this with aluminum pop can material, but found that it needed to be annealed to result in a clean corner at the heel. This can be done with a torch, but I really didn't want any extra aluminum oxide wearing on my bore. I wanted to try some 7-UP cans, which used to be steel, but they had switched to aluminum by then. Might've been hard on the punch as well. Using .4375 dia copper disks will work well for .30 through the various 8mm's. These are a good bit cheaper than conventional GCs and can use a number of different materials. There's no GC-maker to build or buy, since the boolit itself accomplishes that. For those with access to the tooling it's a simple thing to do and isn't one of those 10-minute jobs that takes three days.

  2. #22
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    Resurrecting old thread here. Has anyone discovered any innovated methods of installing gas checks on PB bullets? Specifically-I have an NOE .503 350 GR mold that casts PB's. Someone mentioned in thread about an article at Casptpics.net but was unable to find. Thanks!
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  3. #23
    Boolit Buddy
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    Geez, I was reading this thread wondering if I was in the twilight zone thinking whats the big deal with GC a PB bullet and why isn't someone telling the OP to purchase a PB check maker and have at it. Well I finally noticed the date and realized the thread is 10 years old.

    Dieselhorses
    If you can find this old thread surly you came across other threads about GC PB bullets? Pat Marlin makes PB GC maker dies, a few vendors sell PB GC's and at the top of this forum there are a couple threads where guys have made there own PB check maker dies.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master RogerDat's Avatar
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    What he said. Buy or make a PB check maker, make checks out of thin aluminum from beverage cans.
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    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this way of getting casting material somehow.
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerDat View Post
    What he said. Buy or make a PB check maker, make checks out of thin aluminum from beverage cans.
    I want to put a regular "gas check" on a plain base bullet. But evidently the thin aluminum is better alternative. And "yes" I have run across other threads mentioning the latter. I guess I was curious if there was a way to ream the base to accommodate a standard check.
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  6. #26
    Boolit Buddy fatboy's Avatar
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    i have pat marlins check makers and use the thin copper sheet (.011 i think) for plain base boolits. i have also used the beer can aluminum, which i should use all the time just because i keep making empty beer cans. that is a recycle program i can get behind..
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  7. #27
    Boolit Mold
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    Sage Outdoors checks work real well for me.

  8. #28
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    I can't say I have ever seen a way to put a GC shank on a PB boolit.

    To cut one you'd likely need enough bearing surface on the boolit to allow use of a collet to hold the boolit while you used a single point tool to "machine" a GC step.

    Alternately it may be possible to swage a GC shank but that would take a swaging press and with hard lead may not even be practical/possible.

    PB gas checks have been around since about the 70's or maybe early 80's. First I saw of them was Paco Kelley and Ed Wosika made the Free Chex system which used a punch like a gasket punch to cut disks from beverage cans then the disks were dropped into a manual die and hammer formed with mallet and punch to make the check.

    Just a bit of history.

    I made an Ed Smith gas check maker for regular GC .30 cal. boolits and plan to make the same style check maker for PB boolits in both .30 and .44. I guess I'll try one first to see how they do.

    Longbow

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    I can't say I have ever seen a way to put a GC shank on a PB boolit.

    To cut one you'd likely need enough bearing surface on the boolit to allow use of a collet to hold the boolit while you used a single point tool to "machine" a GC step.

    Alternately it may be possible to swage a GC shank but that would take a swaging press and with hard lead may not even be practical/possible.

    PB gas checks have been around since about the 70's or maybe early 80's. First I saw of them was Paco Kelley and Ed Wosika made the Free Chex system which used a punch like a gasket punch to cut disks from beverage cans then the disks were dropped into a manual die and hammer formed with mallet and punch to make the check.

    Just a bit of history.

    I made an Ed Smith gas check maker for regular GC .30 cal. boolits and plan to make the same style check maker for PB boolits in both .30 and .44. I guess I'll try one first to see how they do.

    Longbow
    Good information. I think Im on to something that will easily transform plain based bullets.


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  10. #30
    Boolit Mold
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    In straight walled cases like 45/70 and others, i have put a gas check up side down, behind the the projectile and seated it,done this hundreds of times with no problems

  11. #31
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    If a bullets design calls for a GC... I put one on. If I don't need a GC, I choose a different bullet.

    NRA Life member REMEMBER, FREEDOM IS NOT FREE its being paid for in BLOOD.

  12. #32
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    Beautiful job PC'n that bullet longshot.

  13. #33
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    Thank you sir!
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  14. #34
    Boolit Buddy Ozark mike's Avatar
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    I tend to shoot a lot of pb 45-70 ammo as far as protecting the bullet a grease cookie will suffice your mileage may vary

  15. #35
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Here is a link to Ed Wosika and Paco Kelly's Freechec tool:

    http://www.lasc.us/TaylorFreeChec.htm

    The first gas check maker I made was like this where I punched disks wit a gasket punch like punch then dropped the disks into the forming die. It worked well but was tedious. Next check maker I made was the Ed Smith version which is posted here and still available. These were both for GC shank boolits but by simply changing punch and die diameters they could be made to produce the thin checks needed for PB boolits.

    I like the single stroke punch and form tool Ed smith came up with. I used it with a mallet because so far I have been using old gutter aluminum for my checks and it runs about 0.019" thick so much thicker than regular checks but the aluminum just extrudes a deeper cup and still work fine. For PB checks the punch would need to be larger for the full boolit diameter and die as well with smaller gap for the thinner material. Easy to do.

    If you have a lathe or friend with a lathe the tool is pretty easy to make.

    Longbow

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by HCH View Post
    Sage Outdoors checks work real well for me.
    Just for the record .458 is the biggest Sage offers
    Pain is just weakness leaving the body...
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Terrence Clarke View Post
    In straight walled cases like 45/70 and others, i have put a gas check up side down, behind the the projectile and seated it,done this hundreds of times with no problems
    Dumb question. How do you seat a gas check upside down?
    Pain is just weakness leaving the body...
    It is better to be hated for who you are, than to be loved for who you are not (ask DJT).

  18. #38
    If one goes to the MidwayUSA website and wades through the customer reviews for the Hornaday cam-lock bullet puller, somewhere there is a detailed description about using this tool to modify bullets to accept gas checks. I have never tried this.

    I have successfully crimped gas checks on Missouri Bullets bevel base .358 pistol bullets without any special tools or modification to the bullet.

  19. #39
    Boolit Master Handloader109's Avatar
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    Do it the other way.... Put the Gas check on the bullet and then powder coat it. I've done it with my 22tcm bullets. But found at 2000fps it really didnt help any. So I just powder coat and fergit it.

  20. #40
    Boolit Buddy
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    Sage Outdoors sells aluminum gas checks made for plain base bullets. I tried them and they didn't make the grade. It didn't fit my bore correctly. Slapping a GC on a bullet that doesn't fit your bore properly won't cure leading issues. I like Gator gas checks on bullets from a mold designed for copper gas checks. If you're using White Label Carnauba Red for lube and getting leading with a Gator GC then the bullet doesn't fit your bore.

    Google the name, go to their site, and buy them by the 1000, 500, or 250. Easier than buying another tool and spending time on such a tedious task. If someone wants to make their own I think that's great. Live and let live. I just have no desire to cut up pop cans and punch out little disks. Rather buy them.
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    Last edited by jjarrell; 04-27-2019 at 12:08 AM.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check