Questions regarding alloying

[Ogur]

Hi! I'm Ogur. I just signed up here. I'm from the Netherlands and am a member of my local shooting association. I've been a member there for little over a year now so now I've got my first year weapon license going through the red tape. Gun laws are a bit of a pain over here.

My question is not regarding my first rifle. That will be a .22LR olympic match rifle as that is all I am allowed to get on my first year license. As of my second year I will be allowed to add another weapon to my license. That weapon an be basically any caliber, just not semi- automatic. So I've started orientating on what's out there and what I like.

I want to try my hand at casting my own bullets and hand loading my own rounds. Add to that my interest in lever- action rifles and quite quickly I arrived at .45-70 govt chambered lever- actions. I proceeded to ask around at the society to see if there was any expertise there. The guys who have been hand loading there for over 10 years told me the .45-70 is a fine caliber to start on. But they suggested that I got an antique trapdoor rifle in that caliber first. An antique because in our gun laws antiques are considered "free weapons". They do not take up a slot on your license and there are no restrictions on caliber and such. Apparently they are also a lot easier to clean, which is quite handy considering the black powder charges. They don't get my fascination for lever- actions that much and aren't into the non- antiques, so all the information I got from them was on the antiques.

They said that I would be best off loading roof lead or plumbers lead for an antique rifle as that wouldn't damage the bore and would still get me perfectly fine accuracy for competitions. This thing is, I am sitting on quite a pile of linotype lead, courtesy of my now retired father. He owned a printing shop and still had a lot of the stuff lying around.

I can understand the logic of using a very soft alloy in the antique rifles. However, I do plan on getting a modern .45-70 lever action in due time. I'm leaning towards a marlin 1895. This way I already have moulds and experience in casting and loading .45-70 ammo. However, does the same apply to modern lever- actions, regarding the softness of the alloy? Can I mix a good alloy with linotype and plain lead or should I stick to pure lead?

I would like to load for the modern rifle in modern powder and use the ammo to hunt. (That's a whole different story as I have plans to move to Sweden in the future and hunting licenses are a lot easier to obtain there then in Holland. Also, considering the size of game in Sweden the rifle should be able to take anything from roedeer to moose and bear)

I know, long story, only a few questions. Any advice would be greatly appreciated though.

[runfiverun]

You can make a perfectly good alloy from Lino-type and roof lead for your levergun.
The advice on the trap door is correct you will want a softer alloy and lighter loads ( lower pressure) however you can still get there with the Lino and soft lead mix.
You need the proper diameter either way.

[popper]

move to Sweden

45-70? Availability of cases? Also the type of hunting, lever guns are typically not used for long range. 45-70 usually takes a big chunk of lead. Just some things to think about.

[dubber123]

Welcome to the forum! While some may disagree, many Trapdoor shooters use the appropriate charges of the correct smokeless powders quite successfully. Lino as noted above can be mixed easily with softer lead to make a variety of useful alloys. Have fun, stop back with any questions you may have.

[shooter93]

You'll be fine with the lino and lead and you can also use smokeless powders in the trapdoor. Just use the right loads for lower pressures. Loading manuals almost all have a separate listing for Trapdoors and you may very well find out that the load you use in the Trapdoor is perfectly fine in the Marlin too once you get it. ....Welcome to the site....be prepared to go broke though....lol.

[quilbilly]

Welcome to our happy addiction. I use roofing lead regularly for alloying into all of the boolits I make. The alloy I prefer is 60% soft roofing lead, 37% hard birdshot which supplies the antimony and arsenic needed as a hardener, and 3% tin. Of course, I clean the roofing lead first by turning it into ingots. You may prefer a softer alloy for the antique weapons but this alloy works as well for my 9mm and 32-20 as it does for my 223, 308 and 338. I do use pure in my muzzleloaders, of course. I can usually find plenty of the birdshot inexpensively from people who are no longer loading for shotguns.

[Ogur]

Thanks for all the responses! A lot of stuff to take into consideration.
Popper, I have thought about those things. From what I've learned from the guys in my society cases for .45-70 last many shots due to not being bottlenecked (just parroting here, no hands on experience) And middle and northern Sweden is basically one huge forest. I don't expect range to be a problem. I am partial to the "big chunk of lead" approach, as in a forested area there are much higher chances of hitting a leaf or twig or whatnot when taking a shot. And from what I've read a 45-70 won't blow the front half of a roe to hamburger making it a caliber I can use basically on any game out there. Then there is the bear density out there. People don't encounter them often, but almost all accidents happen with hunters.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Hullo, welcome to the insanity....If you go to the bottom of the page, you should see an add from the LASC shooting club, there is a lot of information there for different mixes & hardness scale for boolits. Lots of good reading also...have fun

[Wayne Smith]

Slow Elk beat me to it. The LASC site has an alloy calculator and a lot of information about the various uses of various alloys. Enjoy reading!

[Ogur]

That looks handy! Thanks guys! I've got an antique convention coming up here in a few weeks where they are allowed to sell free weapons and reloading/ casting gear. Gonna hang on until then to see if any good deals come up on presses, pots, literature, etc, etc, etc. Then I can start getting my gear and the learning process begins!

[Bigslug]

Welcome Ogur!

Trapdoor? I like a good Springfield as much as any single shot junky, but on the topic of antiques, your Danish ancestors made some fine copies of the Remington Rolling Block that, while not .45-70, are pretty much equivalent in performance, are a lot stronger than a trapdoor, and could be rebarreled to .45-70 easily enough - - shouldn't be hard, I would think, to find one that already has been.

I would not shoot pure lead in one of those old guns, but there's no reason to shoot bullets made of granite either. Depending on the state of your linotype, mixing it into pure lead at a rate of about 25% should give you something close to American lead wheel weights, which is a good metal for any extreme you'd care to go to with a .45-70.

[cajun shooter]

Ogur, Go to our sticky section and find the book "From Ingot To Target" by Glen Fryxell and Ron Applegate. It will provide a ton of information for you. It's about 170 pages and I downloaded and printed it out, then put it in a 3 ring binder. I've been casting and reloading since 1970 and I still use it for reference.
I've also been a reloader of the 45-70 since that same time period. My first 45-70 was a H&R single shot that I purchased in 1972. I then had a gunsmith make me one out of a Siamese action bolt rifle. I now shoot the H&R Buffalo Classic with a 32"bbl. Annealing my brass has helped with my target grouping.
If you have both soft lead and linotype, you then have the makings for many different BHN alloys. Your 45-70 will respond well with an alloy of 20-1 and up depending on rifle and load. The biggest thing is to slug your barrel and make sure your bullets are at least .001 above that reading. I, myself prefer to use lead bullets that are .002 over bore. My 44WCF guns are .427 and I shoot .429 bullets from them.
I use .459 bullets in my 45-70, not all guns are alike and that is why you need to slug your gun. Take care David

[rr2241tx]

Welcome Ogur! Can't go wrong with either a Springfield Trapdoor or an 1867 Danish Rolling Block to learn on while waiting on your license for the lever gun. Do cast your chamber and slug the bore before spending money on reloading equipment. Fit is (almost) everything. 20:1 is a popular alloy, 30:1 generally works well too. Use the alloy calculator to find out how much of your lino to mix with the pure to obtain a similar hardness. Your local shooting community can probably steer you to the appropriate, locally available smokeless powders to create accurate blackpowder-equivalent loads. You'll probably never need a load significantly above the published Trapdoor loads.

[dave roelle]

Hi Ogur:

There are quite a few lever guns from the late 1800's that would suit you purpose and perhaps keep you in the "free gun" catagory------the Winchester 1886 comes to mind----the older Marlins usually as well and they aren't as pricy as the Winchesters.

While "bottleneck" cartridges have a reputation for wearing out cases quicker tha "straight wall" cases its probably more relevant to modern high pressure cartridges. The blackpowder bottleneck cartridges seem much easier on brass.

Some study on those older lever rifles might turn up something interesting.

The Marlin 1895 is a fine hunting rifle, i have had mine for 20 years and always had excellent results with it in the field.

Welcome and best of luck with your search

Dave