The 400 Lee Speed project rifle (and friend)

[leebuilder]

Still in awe at your skill. That rifle makes me drool!!!
Be well and safe.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Garry: I like the color you stained the wood much better. I am really into the Winchester Red color and a look at Turnbull's Restoration website will confirm that they have it mastered.

I also like the grip cap and fore end tip. They contrast much better than the rosewood ones did.

I have a block of Ebony to make my fore end tip on my Boyd's Laminate stock out of.

I plan on cutting the fore end about 3" back hanging it in the mill and milling the end flat and perpendicular to the bore. Then Two "F" sized holes about 3/4" apart and centered on the centerline of the fore end. Same for the Ebony and then 1/4" aluminum pins with grooves in them to hold the Epoxy.

I want the overall length on the fore end about 1" shorter than it is now as the gun has a 22"bbl.

The secret to getting the perfect fit everytime is to use Polyester Resin Pigment to color the Epoxy. (available at Surf Shops.) What this does is fill any gaps you might have and I assure they can't be seen afterwards.

This is a trick I developed making knives.

Randy

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Of course we all know people create scores of new cartridges every year, without improving for any practical purposes on the cartridges already in existence by the early years of the twentieth century. But there's knowing and there's knowing. When you have created and used rifles like these, you must really know it.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Garry here's a pic of that little knife.

B in S: There's a saying ,,, "new cartridges are like new jokes!"

With very few exceptions , there have been almost no new cartridges of any real use invented after 1960.

And you can even dial that back to about 1930 fairly easily if you only wanted to talk about significant cartridges that have stood the test of time. Virtually all new cartridges are modifications of something that came earlier, and none of them will do anything any better than their ancestors, and to add to that most all of the new ones are simple variations on things that were tried and rejected along time ago.

Everything that is good now was based on the Mauser case head, or the H&H belted case head, and look at the .45-70 which came out in 1873 and is more popular now than it was in 1890!

Virtually all high performance new cartridges have simply increased the case volume of something else to increase velocities.

There has been a lot of improvement in bullet technology, which really makes older cartridges perform like new ones.

But really will anything know the difference after being hit with a bullet going 3300 fps over one at 2900 fps.

I consider the only real sporting use for such long range cartridges to be the elimination of 2 legged vermin.

A friend of mine was shooting his .40-65 with black powder rifle at our Silhouette Shoot this last weekend. He had 60 MOA on the gun at 500 Meters. His 350 gr boolits had a midrange of 330 inches or 27.5 feet! They knocked 6/10 55lb Rams down with authority!

Shooting My #4MK1 offhand at the same silhouette course 500,385,300,200 Meters I only hit 3/40 however I was so close on the majority of shots that I could safely put forth that 30/40 would have hit a man sized target,,, with a rifle made in 1943 shooting a cartridge invented in 1880 which is just as powerful now as it was 100 years ago.

People haven't gotten any tougher, and neither have game animals. Paper targets never knew the difference anyway.

Knowledgeable people have been doing this for 150+ years. Anyone who thinks they are doing something new is simply a victim of our Pathetic Education System.

pardon me for rambling on.

Randy

[Von Gruff]

I heartily agree and have often said that if we only had the cartridges that appeared before 1920 we would still have all that is really needed in the game fields although it might require a change in hunting methods. My gun safe tends to have rifles chambered for cartridges mostly older than 1900 with 577-450, 303 and 7x57 holding the places of honour for the larger stuff and the 400 which is all reality is simply a slightly shorter 405 Winchester and from 1904. My small game rifles are a different matter though with a 20 VT for the rabbits and a 6.5 GM (my wildcat 6.5 Grendel) for the goat sized animals that are in big country that might stretch the open sighted rifles. http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showt...uplle-of-goats

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I think the advantages of Ackley's extremely straight body are real enough - very slightly in accuracy, virtually zero in velocity if it is with a slightly longer round that you can compare them, but rather more so in brass life. There is no doubt at all about the extremely tight tolerances to which benchresters work - and no doubt that we can't use them for any application in which a speck of dirt in the chamber could impede the shot of a lifetime. Cases habitually used for benchresting etc. may, when sized, have unusually close tolerances in internal capacity too. People who talk about shooting prairie dogs at a mile cause me some annoyance. We wouldn't much respect someone who hunted deer at ranges where he could make groups of two or three feet, and what has a prairie dog done to deserve less? It didn't ask to be a varmint.

If I was trying to build the ultimate target rifle, my attitude to the .303 would be like the old Irishman who is asked to give directions: "Sure, sor, and if I wanted to go to Dublin, I wouldn't start from here." But we aren't. If we are looking for a rifle to be used in the way people usually hunt game, the .303 is about as good as anything. Jeff Cooper said about the same of the .30-40.

[Von Gruff]

So having the rifle sorted I needed to get it to feed as the width of the bullet made the standard mag unworkable.
I wanted to be able to do this without destroying the originality of the KMlll long lipped mag I had so removed the follower but would use the spring
I had the gutter supports from an old vehicle roofrack and saw that they had a nice hollow so out came the hacksaw

Cut it with fold over lugs and it was good to go

A piece of stainless was folded and shaped for the insert so it would work a bit like a 22 longrifle magazine with centre feed

[Von Gruff]

It will take 5 down and the only thing I need to do now is to taper the top of the ramp a little as the wide meplat on the ACC 41-320W bullet makes it a catch point on occasion. It did so on one cartridge in this test vid so a little dremmel work should see that sorted.

[Von Gruff]

Have done the majority of shaping on the stock now and this afternoon I hope to attend to the sights. Have a No 4 front sight band and need to get it turned out to fit my barrel and cut the slots in the aperture arm to get the elevation sorted.

[Von Gruff]

I think I will call this one done now.

[FrankG]

Thats a beauty Garry !!

[Von Gruff]

Thank you. I am a little pleased with how it has turned out as well. This is the "pair" that will be stablemates, with the 303 and the 400 and their respective ammunition capacities and the knives appropriate to dress the game they are suited for

[W.R.Buchanan]

Garry: Both those guns came out looking right proper!

I like the Black Fore End and Grip Caps much better than the previous ones. In fact it moved me to purchase a 1/2" think piece of Ebony the other day to make a grip cap for my Gray Laminate Boyd's Stock on my .35-303 project. I had already planned on a, and Ebony Fore End Cap but it really needs the Grip Cap as well to equalize the contrast across the gun.

Another little subtle point is that you left enough material in the fore ends to have some meat to hold onto, While still retaining the "Lee Speed" look. Some of the Lee Speed Splinter Fore Ends tend to be a bit small for my tastes.

The color of the wood is right in line also. It really looks nice in the outdoor light!!!

I think you done real good!

Randy

[Von Gruff]

Speaking of the forestocks and the dimensions. I am of the opinion that your hand needs to comfortably encircle the wood and barrel at the front of the receiver and taper from there and any place along the length the hold dynamic is with the thumb and fingers on top of the wood and against the barrel . This has the center of the barrel between the directing portion of the hand and is more naturally pointed and is part of the design that makes these rifle very fast to lock onto targets with. I was fortunate enough to handle a number of Lee Speeds and the pattern is a compromise pattern from a couple of them. Many Lee Speeds were simple factory sporting rifles and called Lee Speeds because of the patent John Speed took out on the double stack 10 shot magazine and the bolt safety. Because he worked for the BSA company, BSA acknowledged this on the socket but after the first short patent timeframe expired they no longer marked the rifles as such. Other gunmakers bought the BSA commercial action and stocked them as clients required and this bought about the many differing dimensions of the LEE Enfield sporting rifle, commonally called Lee Speeds even without the wrist marking. One thing they all have though is the svelte pointability and is what I have endeavoured to bring to the pattern I have made and the stocks that come from it. The forstock needs to be slim enough to act as a pointer in hand with just enough to hold onto and control the rifle.
At the reveiver


and at the forend tip, and as it is only 8 1/2 inches from the receiver is the natural place for steady hold and direct pointability

[taco650]

Very nice job on both!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Garry: Your hold on the guns fore end is similar to the proper hold on a Schnabel style fore end.

All these fine points are the difference between a club and fine sporting weapon. So many clubs out there.

It's good we make our own!

I tend to view stock dimensions based on what I learned while reading Whelen Catalogs. They had all the proper measurements for the Classic American Bolt Action Rifle figured out by 1920, and little has changed to this day. About the only real difference between early and contemporary butt stocks is the drop at the heel which used to be much steeper than is considered proper nowadays.

I have to confess that my #4Mk1* Long Branch 35-303 has a Laminated Boyd's Buttstock and Fore End and both those trend more towards American styling as opposed to the classic British look. The butt has a more strait comb than yours do and the fore end is fuller and longer.

I plan on shortening the fore end about 1" overall with the Ebony in place, and the addition of the Ebony Grip Cap should accent the lines for a pleasing look.

However, as one of the Queens Subjects,,, it would be more proper for your guns to have the Classic British lines and you have captured that essence pretty well.

My amazement is that hardly anyone is replicating these guns as they were originally done. It would seem there would be a ready market in the UK, and DU for guns like these built to the highest standards just like there is a market for the classic American Bolt Action Rifles made by Griffin and Howe and the like.

What was old, is now new, and we see that in the cars that people build to relive their younger days. Restorations of classic cars has been eclipsed by people building brand new,,,old classic cars. We have outfits building brand new classic body styles that you can modify to any configuration imaginable. You essentially are driving a new car that looks like a 57 Buick,, or just about anything else you fancy. All it takes is money.

We have an outfit in LA building Brand New Toyota FJ40 and FJ45 Land Cruisers and even making some configurations Toyota didn't do. $175K each and all are sold before built. The same outfit makes a replica of the Ford Square Fender Bronco 1966-72, $175K for that one also. These are not restored vehicles,,, they are brand new cars!

When you can't find a used version of what you want, then you build it yourself. Hell I'm even doing it!

Randy

[taco650]

Von Gruff,

Could you PLEASE elaborate on the differences between the "Speed" rifles and a "standard" #1 Mk 3? I have a 1935 issue #1 Mk 3 parts gun that shoots well but I'd like to restock with a "sporter" style stock. The factory stock is missing the upper barrel section so I don't mind butchering it to a more sporter appearance but... Anyway, if you have a link to a site that explains it just post and I'll read up. Thanks!

[Von Gruff]

John Speed was an employee of BSA and the very early Lee Metford rifles has a single stack 8 shot magazine and a left side body mounted safety catch from its introduction in 1888 and 1889 was called the Magazine Lee Metford (MLM Mk l). In 1892 the MLM Mk l* with the same 8 shot single stack magazine but the safety catch was omitted.
In 1892 the MLM Mk ll was introduced with the John Speed patented 10 shot double stack magazine and the bolt mounted safety catch. From then the Lee Speed patents were noted on the wrist socket of the commercial and sporting actions but not on the military actions after the first patent period ran out (as far as I can find in any notes)
When the patent term ran out the Lee Speed marking was simply replaced with BSA & Co on the wrist socket
The Sporting rifles were not made from military actions so there was no lobbing site and the recess for it, which made for a sleek wrist leading into the grip area that the Lee Speeds and the associated sporting rifles are noted for. As the only difference between the Lee Speed marked sporting rifles and the BSA & Co marked rifles is the wrist marking they have generically been called Lee Speeds but never those that may have been made on military actions like I have done here. Sporting rifles in the Lee speed "style" have been made on charger loading MLM and MLE actions as these in the Govt arsenal were converted for use in the 14-18 war and were noted as CLMLM or CLMLE (charger loaded magazine Lee Metford or Charger loading magazine Lee Enfield)with this being noted on the LEFT of the wrist socket. The custom gunmakers would make to what ever the client required and so there were sporting rifles made from the early MLM and MLE actions BUT the SMLE actions were not as a rule used. Parker Hale was one factory that did make sporting rifles from the SMLE action and these have seen wide use in many countries.
What seems to define the Lee Speed other than the stock style is the magazine cutoff and the bolt safety and in reality the Lee Speed style refers to these aspects of the rifles as much as it does to the patent marking on the wrist socket and just recently I decided to see if a decent looking sporting rifle could be made from a 1917 MK lll action which is the SMLE and differs in that it has a riveted on bridge that needs removing as I see no earthly use for a charger bridge on a sporting rifle but the safety is a bit of a challenge and it may just be removed altogether and the recess filled so the old fashioned half cock can be used instead.

After the hacksaw had done its bit



Right side cleaned up



Left side cleaned up. I left the remains of the bridge on this side to fill the recess it occupies and while there is the slight gap underneath it is not a bad visual detractor

The top edge needs dressed back now and the safety removed with its recess filled and the anchor screw hole filled but whatever I do to it there is no way it can be called anything other than a Lee Enfield sporting rifle

[FrankG]

That streamlined it right up !

[taco650]

That streamlined it right up !

Yes indeed. So the charging bridge offers no added structural strength to the action? Also, with the action mounted safety removed, what will function in its place? Sorry but I must have missed something in your explanation of the Speed. Is this rifle going to remain a 303?