Hours of Cleaning.

[Matt Muir]

Man, how many hours of cleaning do these big ol guns require! I satrted cleaning my 45-70 last night and after about 2 hours I thought I was done. I looked through the barrel and thought I saw wavy stuff between the lands. The patches were spotless, and I had shot 25 or so bullets. Out of those maybe 6 have been with BP.

My first thought was lead, but I saw no shiny specks on any patches. I use Hoppes and TC cleaner. I also used a bronze brush after some soaking and still some wavy lumps(very slight) I stopped by a BP shop today and he sold me a Beechwood Casey Lead Cloth. Told me when I think the bore is spotless run a patch of it through and you will be amazed.The gunk that came out was scary. Again, no silver speck just blackish gray grud with a hint of brown . I have bore butter in now to soften, if it is fouling, and will go at it again on Friday if its lead.

What am I missing, is this junk lead? I used Montanna bullets and a box of Cabelas brand. Never had lead before in a gun so I dont know what to look for. It was always easy to spot copper, blue patch, but this has me flustered. I can have perfect patches then run this cloth through and its filthy.

I do have a bond with the gun now at least

Matt.

[Don McDowell]

I'm thinking your bullets might be to small in diameter.

Might not hurt to run a handfull of jacketed bullets thru it , clean after every shot for the first 10 and then after 2 or 3 for then next 10 just to get some of the ruff spots out.

[Yance]

Sounds like "Hardcast syndrome" Matt.

Commercial bullets, unless ordered from a "custom caster" are rarely large enough to fit most bores. Add to the undersize problem the fact that they're "hard cast" and you have a problem.

Ever notice how pure lead takes more heat (time) to melt than an alloy with tin and antimony added? Undersize hard bullets can't obturate to seal off gases, and "hard" alloys vaporize from gas cutting much easier than softer bullets.

Either cast your own from 20-1 or 30-1 (I'm using 30-1 for 500 grainers), or order some from a custom caster poured from either of those alloys.

"case in point".

When I bought my Pedersoli Sporting Sharps I bought about 400 rounds of ammo that was "loaded for that gun" according to the seller. He'd told me how great all his loads shot in that rifle. I (foolishly) shot 50 rounds of "plinking" ammo, 350 gr bullet and a light charge of an unidentified powder. The bullets were HARD, and must've been .457" because when I finished I had lead actually peeling in strips from the last third of the barrel. Changing to 30-1 500 grainers over 70 gr of FFg changed all that.

As far as removing the lead you now have stuck to you bore, pick up a Chore Boy stainless steel pot scrubber at the grocery store. Make a tight fitting wad around an old cleaning brush and use that to cut out the lead. Use it DRY! Oils and solvents just lubricate everything and let what would be cutting edges just float over the lead.

Soft bullets + soft (non petroleum) lube + Goex = FUN!

[boommer]

MATT what type rifle? lever, single shot or bolt? what type of bore solvent or soap and water? Were you shooting jacket bullets and smokeless then shooting black powder and lead loads without cleaning in between the two? These are things that are helpful to know!

I wash my barrels out with hot soapy water first with a bore mop then take a bore brush run it run it up and down few times then the bore mop again then flush the barrel with hot water look down down the barrel see if it's clean of fowling. If clean then run some dry patches down the barrel. THEN if leaded get the lead out! That takes 15 min? the rest is like any other gun. black powder does not like petroleum products that much, hot soapy water works the best !

If you give us better Info. because the way I clean lever action is a little different than single shot or bolt! Also oil in your bore don't help need to clean that out before shooting black powder rounds. Then HOW MANY ROUNDS DID YOU SHOOT BEFORE YOU RAN A COUPLE CLEANING PATCHES DOWN THE BORE need to clean the bore every few rounds or you char the barrel you might of super fowled your barrel THATS what I think you might of done!!! hope it helps Matt

[Mike0904]

I wouldnt switch between BP and smokeless without a good cleaning between the switch...tryed it once with a shogun someone said they cleaned they're BP out with a few smokeless shells.......guess they got a laugh outta that.....A$$ *#@!!'s
took 2 hours to clean and it was a shotgun. I have 2 sets of guns...ones fer BP and ones fer smokeless. Nuff said. IMHO

[Matt Muir]

It's a Shiloh fellas with a 34 inch barrel. I shot smokelss first and finished with the BP rounds. This was done ove th corsre of 2 days. BP shop owner suggested a healthy dose of bore butter after cleaning and to run soaked patches at the range to season the barrel. I have done that with muzz loaders in the past and it did work great.

I have always used hot soapy water or bore cleaner from TC in the past for the BPand normal stuff for the smokless.

I did not clean between rounds with the smokless, should I? I thought I could get away with only shooting a few rounds of black before the cleaning, guess I was wrong.

If this junk is fouling the butter soak should soften. If not what is the best stuff for lead? I see some talk of Ballisto(sp).

I just got all of my casting stuff so I will try that soon, in the mean time I will shoot some jacketed rounds and bump up the loads to make sure I am sealing the bullet. I was loading on the lower side for smokless, 34 gr of 3031 for tests.

It has only ever taken me 15 min in the past to clean as well, thats why this threw me.

[StrawHat]

As far as removing the lead you now have stuck to you bore, pick up a Chore Boy stainless steel pot scrubber at the grocery store. Make a tight fitting wad around an old cleaning brush and use that to cut out the lead. Use it DRY! Oils and solvents just lubricate everything and let what would be cutting edges just float over the lead.

Soft bullets + soft (non petroleum) lube + Goex = FUN!

The only difference between what Yance does and my method, is I use a Brass Chore Boy. Pull a strand out of the pad, wrap it around a worn out bore brush and go to it.

Lead, fouling, dirt, whatever gets scrubbed out in a hurry.

[twotrees]

Matt,

Did you load those hard boolits with the smokless powder load over BP.. If so you have Tar (Thats what the color sounds like to me).

Only use a GOOD BP lube with BP or you are in for a real chore of cleaning.

Smokless lube with smokless, BP lube with BP, ONLY!!

Good Shooting,

TwoTrees.

[John-n-va]

I was gonna say you need to slug your barrel but since its a Shiloh its gonna be .458. Mic those bullets and I bet they are .457 or .4575 tops. Shiloh's, from what I have read and my limited experience with mine, is they want at least .459 in a soft alloy of 20 or 30 to 1. Montana Bullets are "hard". Loose hard bullets lead your barrel.....heck loose soft bullets will too!

It takes about 5 minutes to clean my Shiloh to a bore that sparkles.

[exblaster]

What about using COW? Maybe after soaking with Ed's Red?

Exblaster

[Boz330]

What Don said about breaking in the barrel. It is a BP gun why not use black? If I shoot smokeless in my guns they are tough to clean. With BP it is 2 wet patches 2 to 3 dry and it is clean. I alwys get a few lead specks out but if I think I have a problem I run a Kroil soaked patch down the bore and let it sit for a while. Then a real tight dry patch and that usually does the job. Another trick is to run a pure lead ball down the barrel, you would be surprized how much lead that will get out.
BTW I find that Swiss BP is quite a bit easier to clean up than Goex. If all else fails try an electronic bore cleaner. They are easy to make.

Bob

[e15cap]

You are blow tubing between shots when using the BP righ? Or pushing a wet patch between shots? I suggest you get over to the Shiloh forum and so some research there. I have fired 60-80 shots in the summer heat in So-Cal and cleaned up with 4 patches. If you want more info contact me offline. Best Roger e15cap@aol.com

[Don McDowell]

Matt I'm going to guess you got those bullets from Cabelas'. If so, those Montana bullets are swaged at .458 and lubed with spg. They are to small, and spg tends to leave alot of heavy gunk when fired with smokeless.3031 can get pretty dirty when used at lower pressures like that. I'ld use the remainder of those bullets to help fill the lead pot when you start casting.
The Cabelas bullets are sized at .459 and cast from 20-1 and lubed with Sagebrush alox, a very good lube for both smokeless and black.
Best thing to take that bit of lead that you have out, is a good tight patch on a jag with some Kroil. Ballistol works pretty well, but if the lead is really hung in there the kroil will loosen it up in short order.

[freedom475]

What Don said about breaking in the barrel. It is a BP gun why not use black? If I shoot smokeless in my guns they are tough to clean. With BP it is 2 wet patches 2 to 3 dry and it is clean. I alwys get a few lead specks out but if I think I have a problem I run a Kroil soaked patch down the bore and let it sit for a while. Then a real tight dry patch and that usually does the job. Another trick is to run a pure lead ball down the barrel, you would be surprized how much lead that will get out.
BTW I find that Swiss BP is quite a bit easier to clean up than Goex.

If all else fails try an electronic bore cleaner. They are easy to make.

Bob

Boz, how do I make one of these?

[montana_charlie]

You have had three guys recommend a 'real tight patch' to get the leading out.
In case you are wondering what 'real tight' actually means, listen up...

You need a quality cleaning rod for this, like the Tiptons and Deweys.
Find a brass jag and patch combination that is a nice, snug, fit in the chamber. (this instruction is not for bottleneck chambers)

Shove the patch up the bore until it lodges and won't move.
With the rifle on a cleaning stand...or someone holding it...smack the rod handle with a heavy mallet to force it through the barrel.
If you can pound it through with your hand, it's not tight enough.

If you don't have the cleaning stand or human holder, you can hold the rifle muzzle up and smack the rod handle on the floor.

You can see why a tough rod is needed.

I recently discovered that, with my jag and patch combination, I can pull the gun down to the floor by holding the barrel and hanging my weight on it...like climbing a pole.
That eliminates the 'repeated thumping' (on the floor) which makes my wife wonder what I am pounding, this time.

That tight patch method works best if you soak the bore with Kroil for a while (ten minutes or overnight) and start with a Kroil-soaked patch. Then use dry ones until you get a clean patch.

Examine your bore again to see if you need to start over. Sometimes (depending on the condition) it takes two or three cycles.

CM

[bigborefan]

Matt,
I'll give you my experiance with a Shiloh 45/110 that I bought used. The guy that originally owned it didn't know what he was doing in reloading BP cartridges. The dozen or so cartridges that came with the rifle exibited the worst reloads that I have ever seen. That being said, the guy who I bought it from claimed that it was only fired about 20 times. Again, judging by the accompanying rounds, I can understand why . He probably couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it. Trying to clean the bore out, I spent 3 hours trying but couldn't seem to get the lead that was deposited near the muzzle out. I used every method including Kroil, tight patches and Chore Boy copper pads wrapped over a nylon bore brush. Nothing worked. I've used the Chore Boy before with excellent results but not this time. I ended up buying the lead Away cloth by Kleenbore similar to what you used. It was the only thing that would get the stubborn lead out of my bore. There is only one problem using this lead away cloth. The black kunk that shows up on the cloth after repeated stroking the bore is not fouling. It is the bluing inside your barrel. The cloths are treated with a chemical abrasive that actually removes your bluing inside the bore. I didn't know this til I read a post on Shilohs forum where one of the owners of Shiloh stated that this is what was happening. So be very careful on how much you use this type of lead removing cloth.
Darrell

[Boz330]

You have had three guys recommend a 'real tight patch' to get the leading out.
In case you are wondering what 'real tight' actually means, listen up...

You need a quality cleaning rod for this, like the Tiptons and Deweys.
Find a brass jag and patch combination that is a nice, snug, fit in the chamber. (this instruction is not for bottleneck chambers)

Shove the patch up the bore until it lodges and won't move.
With the rifle on a cleaning stand...or someone holding it...smack the rod handle with a heavy mallet to force it through the barrel.
If you can pound it through with your hand, it's not tight enough.

If you don't have the cleaning stand or human holder, you can hold the rifle muzzle up and smack the rod handle on the floor.

You can see why a tough rod is needed.

I recently discovered that, with my jag and patch combination, I can pull the gun down to the floor by holding the barrel and hanging my weight on it...like climbing a pole.
That eliminates the 'repeated thumping' (on the floor) which makes my wife wonder what I am pounding, this time.

That tight patch method works best if you soak the bore with Kroil for a while (ten minutes or overnight) and start with a Kroil-soaked patch. Then use dry ones until you get a clean patch.

Examine your bore again to see if you need to start over. Sometimes (depending on the condition) it takes two or three cycles.

CM

A vise with leather covered jaws and 3lb hammer works for me. It usually isn't that bad though.

Freedom 475 check out this site;
http://ca.geocities.com/snidey@roger...recleaner.html.
This works really well if you get a surplus rifle and want to start shooting cast. My K31 was a rolling boil for some time. It is supposed to work with cast but not quite as well as with jacketed.

Bob

[freedom475]

A vise with leather covered jaws and 3lb hammer works for me. It usually isn't that bad though.

Freedom 475 check out this site;
http://ca.geocities.com/snidey@roger...recleaner.html.
This works really well if you get a surplus rifle and want to start shooting cast. My K31 was a rolling boil for some time. It is supposed to work with cast but not quite as well as with jacketed.

Bob

Thanks Boz thats too cool......Does anyone know what chemical will react to lead in the way that ammonia reacts to copper?

[montana_charlie]

Does anyone know what chemical will react to lead in the way that ammonia reacts to copper?

Lead acetate is what to use with a Foul Out-type device...but you can't buy it anywhere that I know of. You can make it...with vinegar and lead...but it takes months to get enough to use.

I'll paste this in, but I have no idea whether it's good information, or not. You know how 'internet knowledge' is.
I don't remember where I found it...

CM

"I picked this tip off the HBD (HomeBrewDigest) and found it to
be useful here too (kind of my Christmas Present to you all).

To remove lead fouling from barrels use a solution of hydrogen
peroxide and vinegar (mix 50/50). This solution produces peracetic acid (approximately 5%) which eats (oxidizes) lead and leaves almost everything else alone!
Plug one end of the barrel and pour it in, shake around every once in a while and pour out the lead salts after a few hours."

[utk]

I've read that some barrels can be pitted or damaged by the hydogen peroxide/vinegar mix.
Personally, I would never take the chance...

Use the search function for "peroxide" and "vinegar".