Bullet hardness and obturation

[BrentD]

Folks -------thanks again for the information !!!! What has been reported is certainly helpful, but doesn't give us the "upper limits" of the obturation/hardness question.

Thanks to Don and Kenny (get well soon sir) for the historical data !!!!! their reference materials are extremely valuable and not readily available.

The Fryxell equation helps, but i'm betting its theoretical not empirical.

I hope to do some limited testing soon and see if i can find the upper limit of hardness, at least in my Shiloh 45-70----------seems that a hardness just below that limit would support the best accuracy----fully sealed bore with lowest distortion of the bullets shape.

Please keep the information stream alive

Dave

Dave since you don't like theory, then you really have to answer the question on your own. Like Kurt said, nose shape, powder brand, granulation and even batch may matter. So will many other things - all just small additional effects but that's what you need to consider if you want a "perfect" answer, so you will have to get it empirically.

The good news is that paper patches can tell you something about this more easily than other bullets. Your patches will give you clues. Look for burn through in the grooves, where hot gasses jet past the wad and bullet before it bumps up (if it bumps up) and burn the patches. If this is really severe, you will get major gas cutting and leading but the patches will tell you even without the bullet to look at.

Here is a relatively is what relatively minor blow-by looks like on a patch - thanks to Larry Talley, as I recall.

[.22-10-45]

In teresting stuff! I will be working with an original Ballard 4 1/2 Mid-Range .40-70 this year..plan on feeding it P.P. & Holy Black..what is this Perry book you are refering to? I sure would like to get my hands on it. Thanks!

[shooter93]

The name and author's full name of the 'Perry book" ?

[dave roelle]

Hi Brent:

Its not that i don't appreciate theory----its just a theory until someone tests it------i read a lot of opinions, i'm sure some have merit-----------very very little evidence is apparent.

Your examples and Kurts have merit

You are correct in that i'll have to test my particular circumstances----hope to get some of that done this weekend-------------I was curious about the upper limit of hardness as a guideline to begin testing, i had not seen anything other than "opinion"

Again thanks for the thoughts and the example !!!!!!!!!!

Dave

[Don McDowell]

Perry's book. http://www.amazon.com/Observations-S...Rifle+shooting

[Lead pot]

Don.

That bullet is a fresh one I not long ago dug out. I found 5 with a metal detector so I can study them to get ready for the upcoming season. I have over 300 out in the snow this year I want to match the alloy with the load and alloy for the calibers I will use this year.
I just got a call from Joe Williams and he said my barrel is on the way to CPA but I don't know if I will get the rifle before last of May or not so I been working on the .45-70 and the .45-90 with that bullet so I want to have the profile stay as close to it was before I shot it..
The paper grain is the same from the base to the patch end. The light reflection wiped out the clarity of the shank. The shank diameter is the same from the base to the patch end. The Ogive did not change in length but the total length of that bullet only shortened .022" that is around .040" less then the 1/16 T/L alloy normally shortens that bullet. But like I said there are still 300 (.44's and .45's) out in the snow and the 4" we got last night and zero temps, plus they are calling for another foot coming it will be a while I see more.

Don that bullet is Brent Danielson's design. I shoot with him for a fill in now and then when one of his partners cannot make the match and I was fortunate enough to get that mould. That is Brent's prolate. Mine weighs in at 517 grains with the alloy I use. 1/16 tin/lead it drops out of the mould at 514 gr.

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Dave.

When you mention lead mine, this makes me think you are using a GG bullet. I have no idea what my alloy would work like with a GG. I don't shoot them, so I don't know what the mix I use will do with them.
I use the 95/5 tin antimony solder. Yes it is costly for a one pound roll at $21. but that alloy is a lot closer in purity then I can get from RotoMetal most likely but I like it and it does what I want it to do.
I cant tell you what the hardness is, I just have a Saeco and a Lee tester and I don't trust them for accuracy I just use them for checking consistence of the alloy.

Kurt

[Don McDowell]

Kurt thanks for the bullet info. I talked with CPA this afternoon, and my rifle should be shipped in about 6 weeks, the wood and action are done, it will get barreled in the next batch. Hoping maybe to have it in time for Cody's April match, if not then for sure will trot it out at Alliance.

[BrentD]

Dave,
The Bhn on my 16:1 bullets made with the purest lead and tin you can hope to get this side of lab grade material, and direct from the smelters, is 11.54 Bhn on an LBT tester (not mine). I don't know what that is good for but my bullets look just like the one Kurt posted. They are darn good bullets.

Kurt, I take it you are coming to Lodi!! Let's hope spring gets there first!

I don't know why but you seem to have all of our snow. We had maybe 4-8 left from the 8" we got a couple weeks ago, and yesterday added 3" to it. Not enough to bother with plowing. I'm going to rebuild my sawdust box this spring and use that for a few experiments. I'm interested to see what my muzzleloader's bump up is like in comparison to the Green Mt. Barrels. The muzzleloader has Pope rifling. Very different and with significantly less space to fill with bumped up lead. So, that might be an advantage. The one match I shot with it sure was impressive. It really screamed for accuracy and I've only used one load in it ever. Same for my Long Range rifle. I just pour my silhouette load into both of them and it just works.

Dave, theory is not the same as opinion. Theory emerges from observation, lots of them, coupled with mechanistic understanding. It's a just a pet peeve of mine but most folks mistake theory for what is it. The term "hypothesis" might more correctly fit your notion of theory.

But for what you want, just jump in at 16:1 as a good starting point and work up from there. When you see patches like the one above, you have reached a limit and have to either get softer or build a better wad, or something like that to stopper that bore.

[Lead pot]

Brent.

Yes I figure on coming to Lodi. The Doctors got me back in fair shape again good enough so I can push the gun cart again anyway. Just could not do that last fall. The Quigley and Baker Mt. just about put me on the wrong side of the green grass
Right now if weather permits and If I can get the Gypsy wagon to move I figure on Effingham. I will give the silhouette game a try once.

I have a front stuffer I build with a GM barrel on it and it shoots just fine, but I wore out several lead lapping slugs making it shoot.
My flint southern Mountain rifle has a round bottom Rice barrel and that rifle is a tack driver on cross sticks. But both are round ball rifles.

[BrentD]

Kurt, the only long range muzzleloader I shoot is one I built (with help) and it is an 18 twist. Wish it was 16. But the Pope rifling was a real long shot for me and it seems to have really paid off. The rifle just plain shoots! And with zero load development. At 1000 it shot 91 calling my own wind and racing up and down to load and fire. I know I should do some load development on it, but it's hard to know how to improve on that w/o having regular access to a 1000 yds range.

Good on being in Lodi. It will be a great time as always. The best match in the country as far as I'm concerned and the second biggest behind the nationals. This year, it might be even bigger.

Say, don't forget there is a good 2-day silhouette Match at Wright City Mo. It is an NRA regional - last weekend in May this year. And I know there is space on my firing point.

Brent

[Lead pot]

Well a 91 at the 1K line is respectable with what ever the caliber is, front stuffer of a suppository.
I don't want to run that far south so close to the Baker Mt. shoot and the Q a week later.
Ft. Grayling Mich might be a match as well as Alma Mich. might be a go also. They are inside a 5 hour drive for me.

[BrentD]

Wish I could make Grayling and Alma easier. Raton is closer, hard to believe, but it is at least relative to Grayling.

[.22-10-45]

Thank you Don. Have it on order.

[Don McDowell]

ubecha Tim, enjoy when it gets there, it sure offers a ton of insight into what those guys were doing. Kenny did us all a big favor when he found and told us about it.

[Lead pot]

I heard camp McCoy might be opening the 1000 yard line for matches if they haven't already. That would be closer for both of us.
Well time to git.

Kurt

[BrentD]

Where is McCoy? I'll have to google it.

[dave roelle]

Kurt-----------i'm shooting PP brooks money nose --------the lead mine reference was to what might happen when i blow through the patch

Brent--------------"hypothesis" is more correct-----thanks for the hardness number-------i'll start there and increase in appropriate steps to the upper limit, witnessed by burnt patches and or lead in the barrel

Thanks for the information gentlemen, its been enlightening

Ya'll have a fun shooting season

Dave

[Kenny Wasserburger]

I have been by that fort McCoy coming home from Camp Perry, had a breakdown in Tomha.

Kurt good to see you posting.

I agree with Brent, jump in at 16-1, I had a great vist on the phone with Chip Mate a few years back over this very subject he wanted to know about the 16-1, I think we all got on that band wagon right about then, I often think about going to 11-1. Just for long range, wad stack I feel plays a huge factor, based on the snow bank reports pictures, of Kurt's.

i believe Kurt's alloy is very similar to Methford's alloy, as is Mike's with the use of Antimony-wheel wts.

Perry mentions major changes in bullet shape were being explored by shooters and the test results would be forth coming in the 4th edition, sadly that never came to pass. He also mentions the up coming publication of a new updated Gildersleve edition, it must of never been done. Pity as it most likely would of included findings from Metford as the original volume did. It is a very rare book, I am glad to have one in my library.

KW

[montana_charlie]

It's fascinating to see the paper grain embedded in the base, the case mouth bite, and then the definet end of the patch and the obtruration of the bullet.

Don.

The paper grain is the same from the base to the patch end. The light reflection wiped out the clarity of the shank.t

Kurt,
Don thinks the paper impression is 'fascinating' on your bullet, but 'deformation' due to patching to groove when it appears on mine.
I can't decide if he doesn't know what he thinks ... or if his evaluation of the effect changes depending on who patched the bullet.


Could you say what diameter yours was when naked ... and when wrapped?
I'm still trying to confirm an 'hypothesis', and I DO understand that your alloy is (probably) harder than anything I have tried, so far.

If the bullet looks just as good shot as it did before it was shot then it's up to you what the down range looks like.

I would say (and I have) that for guys who are not able to shoot at long distances, your words provide them a way to answer questions they otherwise don't have an opportunity to address.

CM

[Don McDowell]

In Seller's book there's a letter from Bodine to the Sharps factory requesting his Centennial rifle to be rebarreled. What is interesting in that letter he goes on to tell them that he wants the grooves deeper than their standard (makes shooting dirty easier), that he wants the bullets to just fit down the bore when carried by the weight of the rod, and to be no harder than 15-1. He also said he thought their paper to thick...