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Thread: The truth about annealing rifle brass

  1. #41
    Boolit Master Digger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by country gent View Post
    Love life and all who asked. I have a lyman big dipper electric lead pot ( ladle version) I made 3 discks of sheet metal one is a base that keeps everything cetered in the pot with a 1/4 20 rod in the center. On this is a another plate with a solid ring around the out side and 3/4" holes in the center. this is the stop plate for case mouths to set on. the top plate is above the sand and has a series of 1/2" holes drilled around the out side. This sits in the pot full of sand I had access to a very fine sand used for making glass that I use. In use I drop lead thermometer into the sand and bring up to 800* and let normalize for a short time. Then insert a case in eah hole to stop plate until there is only one empty hole. Remove the first case inserted and insert one into empty hole before and keep working around the ring like this. I do water quench when removing cases. Any sand that sticks to cases is washed out during rinse. I tried the lead and alloies like the consistency but had the issues of lead sticking to cases. This works for me very well but I mmostly work with straight walled cases also.
    Very interesting !! .. thank you for the description , is there a chance that we could get a pic or two ??
    I am fascinated with the concept ..
    thanks
    digger
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  2. #42
    Boolit Buddy
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    I'm a finger roller. Hold the case just above the base and roll it in a flame, candle or torch until it's to warm to hang onto. Drop it in a can of water at that point. To dry them I stand them, necks down in a loading block and let them stand over night. If I need them right away I'll put them in the oven at 170 with the door ajar for a half hour. That drys them right out.
    Only left handed guns are interesting!

  3. #43
    Boolit Master GabbyM's Avatar
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    OK ,,, My hack job annealing yields rounds that deliver the same accuracy as new Lapua brass. So can anyone tell me how I am doing anything wrong by heating handheld brass under a torch then dropping into water. IMHO annealing without water dropping is poor practice. Just yesterday. I took out a bag of about twenty 30-06 cases I'd picked up on a DOC range in Arizona. About half would not slide into the shell holder. Upon inspection. The rim was so compressed as the shell holder would not fit in the grove. Primers did not look abnormal. Perhaps annealing to far down as in no water drop. ??? I just threw them in brass scrap bucket. Ticked me off as the dirt bags just left junk on the range. These cases were obviously annealed to the case head.

    For the sake of cheep grass. Stick-em into a flame. Count one two three to the right. Count one two three to the left then drop in water.

    I do like those fancy machines Graffs sells. However I just finished up about five thousand cases. Given annealing will be three shots out. I'm good to go for a few months.

    I have a Little Crow case trimmer but a fancy trimmer / deburr would take first dibs over a case anneal machine. With all this new prepped 223 brass and the great RCBS X die. I think I have 223 covered to my next generation.
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  4. #44
    Boolit Master GabbyM's Avatar
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    to dry:
    Dump on a towel. Gather ends. Rock back and forth to roll cases. Then dump out and blow dry with hair dryer on low for four minutes. Then trim to length deburr or whatever needs to be done. Toss in corn cob media tumbler.

    Way I run rounds. After I do intensive case prep on first load. I shoot cast boolits in a good rifle. Use bushing neck dies to prep. I don't tumble clean brass. Just wipe clean then dip in graphite and inside neck brush. Neck size die then reload with cast bullet.
    Keep my cases in MTM 100 round boxes and reload per box. Usually five boxes for a run. My data records are kept in a spreadsheet. Lot numbers start with year then batch. like year 2015 batch 15. Written as 2015-15. When I get to a certain caliber I may have loaded ten lots of ammo that year in other calibers. So I start with 2015-11. Trick is to never loose the spread sheet. My children know my system and will inherit any left overs. Sheet is huge with notes on all sorts of case prep and ballistics information. Without such notes the thousands of rounds of loaded ammo here would be pretty much so much junk per pound.
    Last edited by GabbyM; 02-27-2015 at 08:01 PM.
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  5. #45
    Boolit Buddy
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    I read an article on how Ellwood Epps annealed brass, he would turn the brass by hand and anneal the necks over a propane torch until it was too hot to handle, then he would either drop in water or leave them to air cool.
    Everything I have read about annealing brass says what 303guy already said, hi Pete.
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  6. #46
    Boolit Master GabbyM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303carbine View Post
    I read an article on how Ellwood Epps annealed brass, he would turn the brass by hand and anneal the necks over a propane torch until it was too hot to handle, then he would either drop in water or leave them to air cool.
    Everything I have read about annealing brass says what 303guy already said, hi Pete.
    In my experience. If it starts to get hot on your fingers. You've heated it more than necessary. You do need a good hot flame and aim it well into the shoulder. If flame is to low or aim off. It takes to long to heat the neck and heat has enough time to migrates into the base. After watching the video on the simple machine. I think two torches set up opposing would be a good setup to anneal by hand. I'll still drop mine in a can of water.
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  7. #47
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    Tempilaq is cheap and will tell you if you are hitting the right temperatures and if the heat is transferring to the case head...and how fast.

    Get a bottle of 900 degree tempilaq and 400 degree tempilaq.

    Do it right and take out the guess work.

  8. #48
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    You know, this is a subject that I've found fascinating for a long, long time, now, and the more I learn about the actual scientifically correct way of doing it, the more I have come to realize that there seems to be a significant amount of "wiggle room" in the process. Otherwise, the old time tested but "wrong" in the more modern and scientifically correct sense way of doing it wouldn't have worked as well as it did for me and many thousands of others. Some judgment is of course necessary, but my experience indicates that this is really nothing to be afraid of getting "wrong" unless one grossly overheats the brass. That should at least take SOME of the fear out of it for the newbies here, and those who've just not yet tried it. There's something very reassuring in that, I think. I know when I first did it, I was very intimidated, and worried about ruining my precious brass. Money was hard to come by to a young man with a family going to college and trying to make enough money to support us all. So if any of you are intimidated by any of this, don't be. If a dumb country boy down in Jawja can do it without anything but having read much LESS than has been given you here, and not ruin the brass, I believe it's highly likely you can too. It just takes a little thought and observation. No biggie at all, really, so if ya' ain't tried it, give 'er a whirl. I'm bettin' you'll be pleasantly surprised and satisfied with the result, and the way supplies are spotty now, THAT might be a big deal in the not too distant future. Knowing how could be a boon then. FWIW?

  9. #49
    Boolit Master waco's Avatar
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    Thanks for all the replies fellas.
    The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
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  11. #51
    Boolit Master 243winxb's Avatar
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    http://bisonballistics.com/articles/...rass-annealing and modulus of elasticity- Cartridge Brass-
    Material is 70 copper/30 zinc with trace amounts of lead & iron , called C26000. Material starts to yield at 15,000 PSI when soft (annealed), and 63,000 PSI when hard.
    Material yields, but continues to get stronger up to 47,000 PSI when soft, and 76,000 PSI
    when work hardened.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    Why the water inside the cases?

    I've flame annealed cases standing in water with spent primers and got the necks red hot and still there is no heat staining near the waterline. The conduction of brass is pretty good.

    If I could get the temperature right, annealing in the oven seems like a more controllable concept. Brass does anneal at lower temperatures with longer times. so temperature and time would need to be controlled. That would be what the self cleaning cycle is doing.
    I assume water inside as extra insurance that the body/head area do not get annealed.

    Gear

  13. #53

  14. #54
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    I think I remember reading many years ago, to dip the case necks in powdered graphite before you dunk them in the molten lead. And to only use pure lead. When I anneal my larger calibers, there seems to be enough boolit lube on the neck of the case(residue) to keep the lead from sticking.

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bjornb View Post
    Check this out: www.cartridgeanneal.com
    This Arkansas company sells an annealing setup for 78 bucks, with Tempilaq for temperature control. I have so far annealed over 1000 cases with good results, and I can recommend the Anneal Rite system.
    I think I like this one, production doesn't seem to be much slower than the $500 machine. My pile of "tired" brass is growing so I guess I better do something about it. Thanks for the tip, Bjornb.
    Good thread, Waco.
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  16. #56
    Boolit Master

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    on ovens- I always filled the cases with water 'cause it seemed like a good idea. It probably is not necessary, as long as they don't float. I just checked my new oven. It will roast at 560 degrees F. No data on the self clean cycle, but the net says anywhere from 900 to over 1,000 degrees. My stove will do a 1, 2, 3 or 4 hours clean cycle. I think I will try 560 deg for about an hour and call it good. In the past ( old stove) I used the self cleaner on some 222 Rem and 30-06 that was giving several neck splits. No more splits and the brass seemed to hold up fine.
    For lead dipping, I always had cleaned brass, ( tumbled) dipped in graphite, My lead was always cleaned just prior to dipping. I used that white powder stuff as it leaves a mirror finish on the lead surface. Of course, the lead wad really well fluxed, ready to cast with. hope that helps

  17. #57
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Hi John.

    I'm thinking it isn't necessary to fill the case interior when standing in water but won't do any harm and is extra insurance. Tipping them over gets them out of the way and prevents double annealing and stops the annealing process. Just don't do what I did - dried them in the oven and forgot about them. The next morning they had a dull appearance. I tried one and sure enough, the case head bulged. Had to throw the rest away. I set the temperature to just over boiling, that's all.

    I'm going to try the oven trick on some scrap brass first and see what happens.
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  18. #58
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    I have been reasding all the links guys have posted. Somewhere one said "600 degree OK but takes 1 hours", or words to that effect. So my oven at 560 ish, maybe 1 1/2 hours. Truth is I am lazy and the oven will do a couple 1,000 at one time. ON days like today , about zero, that's not a bad thing.

    ON the "don't do " list. I once drilled out some reloading blocks, like Midways, so my black powder cases could be washed in the dishwasher, mouths down. It seems to have worked fine but the dry cycle cooked them to a very deep rich black color that was very hard to polish off. NO more dry cycle. lol

  19. #59
    Boolit Master 243winxb's Avatar
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    The truth about annealing rifle brass is only the factory can do it correctly in special chambers with a controlled atmosphere.

  20. #60
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    That's not the silliest thing I've ever heard, but close. Guess I'd better stick to only shooting factory ammo too, huh?

    Gear

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
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GC Gas Check