So I can test the new tankbuster bullet from the Brooks mould , in the 44-90 st. Also have a handful of the BACO .446 525 gr bullets ready to try in the 45-90..
Both cases are using 81 grs of OE 1.5 to good affect with grease groove bullets , so that's where I started with these.. Now about that spring time weather.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
I know what you mean Don. Our weather has pretty much switched to spring mode, but the weather is always bad on range day. I'm trying to get some quality time with the chronograph for my .45-90.
Chris.
It's been crazy so far. Be cold windy snowy miserable, then a couple pretty nice days, sometimes almost getting to the 70', then bam right back in the dumper... Getting some casting done, and would like to run these patched bullets again, but I'ld really like to test before I put much more alloy into them.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
It's been a very strange year for weather up here. My relatives back east are freezing in -30 degree weather, while we never had a winter on the west coast. Except for lots of torrential rain storm for days on end. The weather has dried up, but on my range days the rain generally returns. I just need a few more chrony sessions to get this rifle sorted out. I can't complain though. A couple of weeks ago I went to the cabin to do some casting ( I usually start in April due to snow ) and didn't even need to put on show shoes.Don, in your picture, on the second set of bullets from the left, those patches look a lot shorter than the others. How far from the ogive are you patching those? Chris.
While snow hasnt been an issue here till this month its been a cold winter and that isnt conductive to testing or practice. For the past couple months Ive been getting things ready and dry firing here in the house to stay up to par.
Chris I'm trying 2 different lengths of patches. 3/4 and 7/8 inch. It's shown up on target that the shorter patches will most often take a couple of minutes less elevation at 800 yds and beyond. If they'll shoot accurately enough it can make a big difference in the long range stuff, especially when you get into the wind conditions that places like Byers and Raton throw at you.
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CG , yup it's not been a good powder burning winter that's for sure.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
Ive been watching myself alot closer in this cold as with the numbess in my legs and arms I dont know when Im getting cold till it that throbing painfull cold. Then is 304 hours to warm back up. I havent done much since december or so do to this.
Yes MS requires attention to detail that those of us that don't have it don't.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
Well Don it could be alot worse also, I am still getting around and doing what I want. Just not always the same way I did before. Working around hot and cold requires attention to details more so than before. On the plus side I could have constant pain instead of the numbness. Recoil is near as big an issue now. And I can turn bacon with out a spatula.
It is kind of funny, when it was brought forth on the Shiloh forum to use a much shorter patch it was decried as herasy by some. I put forth my own findings on this and from my testing with a harder alloy a shorter patch controlled bullet nose set back or slump some call it. My findings on recovered bullets bump up to to top of the patch with harder alloys, and no further thus preserving the nose profile a bit better, less set back? Later on I found that this was the Hyde method of patching, shorter in width, applied wet or damp paper. I have tested this from 200 yards to 1 mile, the shorter patch bullet requires about 5 MOA less elevation than the taller patched round, conditions at one mile showed as much at a 12MOA difference to as little as 3 MOA, some of that is in part due to the conditions each day these tests were fired. Still it is most thought provoking. It has convinced me enough that it use it for my competition shooting.
KW
Would this one illustrate your concept of bumping up to the leading edge of the patch ... and no further?Originally Posted by Kenny Wasserburger
If it does not, please post some images of the bullets you recovered which show the effect.
CM
Last edited by montana_charlie; 02-24-2015 at 10:00 PM.
Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.
County Gent, I used your suggestion on shortening the handle on the new Lyman ladels, Worked like a champ! Thanks a bunch for the suggestion.
Kenny it doesn't seem like it would make any difference , the width of the patch, but danged if it doesn't. Funny how all this information that has just been sitting there waiting to be "found" was lost for nearly a century.. Big tip of the hat to you guys that find it and share it with the rest of us.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
Indeed it is Don, when DanT first mentioned this, we had via personal correspondence were sharing findings Also with Jimbo, on the phone as Jimbo does not do email well. Then a short time later while doing research I found the 1888 article in my collection of shooting and Fishing books from Brother Garbe, the one on Hyde Method Of wet and short patching, and it's use in the last years of Creedmoor, then my finding of the long lost Book of Perry's, that in my opinion was a huge break through for us modern Day PP shooters.
KW
Yes I believe the last 3-4 years, have advanced modern paper patch shooting by leaps and bounds. I'm also of the opinion that with the number of folks in pursuit of these dark arts, that it won't be long until one or more of them breaks that barrier and brings home the grand prize.. Have it on good word that one of the shooters who's name appears on the Castle Trophy has been working on a patched bullet gun..
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Well then, KW, if you don't have any recovered bullets to illustrate your claim, how about commenting on these two aspects of patching.
Below is a group of five recovered bullets that show two problems.
1) The patches do not all come to the same point on the ogive, so there is steel to lead contact on those which were 'short patched'.
- Do you see this as a critical defect?
2) Several of the impressions show that the two wraps of a patch were not even at the leading edge, causing (what DM calls) a 'double tap' at the top of the engraving.
- How important do you think this is?
I am certain that anyone reading has wondered about these ...
CM
Last edited by montana_charlie; 02-25-2015 at 02:37 PM.
Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.
CM
Looking at those bullets I would say you have your patch where you need it plus so is your bullet alloy. You might comment what the alloy is your using.
I have seen recovered bullets that Lead pot has posted working with the alloy blends and patch placement, but I read that he quit posting so I hope you keep posting your stuff. It is very helpful for the new PP shooters.
As far as the short patch. I been shooting paper patched bullets for a long time. The only thing I have ever found that effects accuracy using a PP bullet and that is if the paper has some sticking additive added like milk, egg white, anything that holds the tag of the patch. Wet patching I found a problem that holds the patch longer from clearing the bullet. Even found paper stuck on the target backer from wet patching. I used to think wet patching was the way to go but gave it up 20 some years back.
A short patch I have not found better then a patch patched to the end of the shank where the ogive starts or a 1/16" up front of the shank to allow for setback to keep the dry lead off the lands or the cutting edge of the grooves. This will effect the accuracy after a few shots fired if the lead sticks. I know some say I don't get lead. They don't look to close to their patches when they clean the rifle.
Keep up your posting your findings CM it helps the new starters.
Keith, I gather you did not see a difference in the elevation requirements between the shorter patch and the longer patch? I have found much the same as Kenny that the shorter patch will shoot to the same point at 1000 yds with less elevation on the staff than the longer patch widths. I have not found much if any difference in the accuracy but that little bit of elevation difference seems to jump right out.
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Well, they aren't my bullets. They were sent to me already (wet) patched, and I just slipped them into some of my cases for the test firing.
I'm pretty sure Joe used 20-1 to make them, and we discussed the patch positioning and 'double tapping' to see if our opinions differed on the subjects.
I posted that picture because I don't have a grouping of mine, so nothing to show a variation in patch placement on a given batch of recovered bullets.
This image is the one (of my stuff) that I would use to illustrate 'too short' patch positioning when compared to doing it right.
It was not saved to illustrate that particular aspect, but it does that pretty well.
The only thing is, everytime I use it in a discussion, ol' McDowell schools me on the 'double tap'.
Kurt has posted a pile of recovered bullets in the past. He shoots a lot of different rifles, different loads, and different alloys, so he does a lot of testing.I have seen recovered bullets that Lead pot has posted working with the alloy blends and patch placement, but I read that he quit posting so I hope you keep posting your stuff. It is very helpful for the new PP shooters.
He hasn't totally stopped posting, but he lost a lot of his saved images in a computer crash, and (apparently) some of the 'experts' have dragged him over the coals for some of his ideas and findings.
He is less willing to stick his neck out these days, but he will join a conversation if it's interesting to him and the participants stay civil.
The bullet on the right (above) was patched dry, and this one was patched wet. The 'scummy' look of the wet one makes me think it wouldn't be hard to get a problem with paper hanging onto the bullet for an extra spin, or two.As far as the short patch. I been shooting paper patched bullets for a long time. The only thing I have ever found that effects accuracy using a PP bullet and that is if the paper has some sticking additive added like milk, egg white, anything that holds the tag of the patch. Wet patching I found a problem that holds the patch longer from clearing the bullet. Even found paper stuck on the target backer from wet patching. I used to think wet patching was the way to go but gave it up 20 some years back.
The dry one clearly shows no adherence of any kind.
I have several other snowbankers that show the 'scum' and every one was wet patched ... including the four in that batch from Joe in the earlier post.
Wasserburger's contention is that short patches work better on harder bullets. I'm not clear on whether McDowell noticed that part, or not ...A short patch I have not found better then a patch patched to the end of the shank where the ogive starts or a 1/16" up front of the shank to allow for setback to keep the dry lead off the lands or the cutting edge of the grooves.
As you know, some information about alloy performance can be ascertained by examining a fired bullet. KW doesn't say how hard the alloy should be, and doesn't provide pictures which show how the bullet fared on it's trip through the barrel.
So, we are left (as usual) with the notion that the validity of the theory is proven by 'what the target tells him'.
Yeah, I'll keep sharing bullet pictures, Keith, whenever I get something that helps me answer a question. I am using a harder alloy this year (too) but there has not been a good snowbank for catching any.
So, with nothing new to show ... I am making no new claims.
CM
Last edited by montana_charlie; 02-25-2015 at 07:41 PM.
Retired...TWICE. Now just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.
I guess at this point I need to ask the question *** are you talking about? Why would I be schooling you on pulling the trigger twice and putting two slugs into the intended target when talking about paper patching?The only thing is, everytime I use it in a discussion, ol' McDowell schools me on the 'double tap'.
Long range rules, the rest drool.
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