Preffered brass length for patch purposes?

[OverMax]

Concerning reloading technique's. In the past I always trimmed my brass to its Minimum specs. As we all know doing so eliminates the Seater dies re-adjustment case to case or batch to batch of brass (so long as the same boolit/s are used.)
Now I'm not so sure if that is the correct thing to do since a patched boolit is held primarily by its cartridges neck without any deliberate crimp applied. {so~~~ any and all (shaved brass) kept intact on a patching cartridge's neck helps for a better held in place papered boolit.} So~~ this is where a cartridge case needs to be filled to its capacity i.e. too assuredly stop that rearward boolits movement upon recoil. I'll assume such thinking is correct unless told differently.
So here's my question.
I can imagine a shortened to spec brass having far less boolit holding abilities and over time even a filled full cartridge will settle its powder some over time which no doubt allow its un-crimped boolit to move rearward at recoil. Allowing some/perhaps lots of movement to take place inaccuracy is sure to take place. So what can one do to keep those patched boolits permanently in place other than their crimping? (can't just super glue them lead patched pills in place)

Frankly: I'm not found of using manufactured glue in any form or mixture in my barrel/s. I'm looking for a Tip or Trick for my application of paper patching.

Thanks for any & all input.

[Old Coot]

Since you are probably NOT CRIMPING the patched bullet in the case ( crimping tends to cut the patch), and patching to a tight fit to a fired and unsized case's neck I would leave the brass as long as possible. Do not use any sort of adhesive to hold the patch together (unless you have a humidity problem then dilute shellac works well) and particularily do not use any adhesive to keep or hold the patched bullet in the case mouth other than friction and a full case. Trying to glue the bullet in will only result in the patch being torn as it leaves the case and leading the barrel.
Patch to a tight fit to a fired and unsized case neck, or patch to fill the chamber throat. That and seating the bullet out far enough to touch the lands will give you the best accuracy. Brodie

[OverMax]

Yes sir. Shortened to Miniumin spec brass necks. Settled powder. No crimp. And my boolits slip backwards on recoil like a peanut in its shell. Like you commented Old Coot. Can't crimp em. (like you I too have seen their patch cut thru attempting just that) I'm stymied finally.

I've got a couple hundred 30-30 Federal brass trimmed to Minimum tolerance.(nearly my whole supply of first fires) And now I don't dare to use them other than shooting G/C or J-word with. Oh well." looks like the old Wish & Wait list for this old cowboy."

[303Guy]

My patched boolits fit so tightly they won't move under recoil. I have to lube them lightly before seating by rolling them on my lube pad with STP for a lube. The lube then soaks away, leaving a tight neck grip. The neck itself does not expand appreciably and the core does not get sized. Only the paper compresses. I can start the boolit into the case with a twist but have to finish seating with my press. Perhaps you could try a thicker paper or size the neck down just enough to achieve sufficient grip.

[OverMax]

I have to lube them lightly before seating by rolling them on my lube pad with STP for a lube.

I wonder if you're use of STP swells its patch? Being a petrol product. That is a typical side effect when something allows oil absorption. My biggest problem is paper. Don't have a well stocked stationary store close by. But I found something paper. Stored for another purpose I overlooked. I think it might work? Thin enough to almost see thru. But strong enough not to tear. So I'm set to give the patching thing another try. Honestly if I can wrap and get my boolits to .311 without their resizing. I'd be tickled pink. Those of you who think patching is simple to do. It ain't.

[Old Coot]

OverMax, If there is a Walphart near you try tracing paper wrapped wet and let dry. Also, how small are you sizing your cores to? Maybe you could hone out the sizing die a couple of thousands and get a larger bullet that way. If you are sizing the wrapped bullet try not sizing it. If the unsized wrapped bullet will go in the unfired case neck (like 303 guy said) that will increase the bullet to neck friction. I would only use the seating die to get final cartridge length and to remove any belling of the case mouth. What are you lubing your patched bullets with? Perhaps you could apply the lube only to the portion of the patch that extends beyond the case mouth.

What is your powder charge? One reason that sloow powders are so popular with paper patchers is that they fill the case usually with a compressed charge. We like it that way because it keeps the bullet from sliding back under recoil or when in a tubular magazine.
Brodie

[OverMax]

how small are you sizing your cores to?

.302

What are you lubing your patched bullets with?

was/ Pacific Unique. Now nothing. I doubt I'll need to resize after my boolits patching.

What is your powder charge?

Last effort: Lightly Compressed 36.0 gr 4350_ Today's ambition is: medium compressed 36.2 4350.

Found some different paper material last night to try Old Coot. Early this Am I tightly wrapped 2/ .302 dia boolits. Two wet wraps each. After their drying. Both Measured .307 tight as all get out and as smooth as silk. (not resized either.) Going to wrap 2 more boolits very soon. 1st w/ 3 wraps__2nd w/4 wraps of paper. If either dry measure close too or spot on .311. I might have discovered my preferred patching paper gents. Simple matter of buying a larger push thru die (.304) to compensate for less wraps is all that I may need. {hello Mr. Buckshot} Confidence is running high here. Funny thing. The paper I used is found in most everyone's household not just mine. lol

[barrabruce]

Ahh john wayne toilet paper!!
Rough tough and takes no...........off anyone
If you keep your cases max length for you gun then the dreaded paper rings will disappear if you get them.

[OverMax]

If you keep your cases max length for you gun then the dreaded paper rings will disappear if you get them.

Not quite up to speed on this comment. Sorry I'm not sure what your referring to sir. (dreaded paper rings)

Well gents after letting my 8-MN long paper patch _.302_ (4) wrap boolit dry over night.
I ended up with a .310 and a slight tad more. Not quite .311 for the Winny I hoping for. But close enough to be tried. With a new custom made .303 push thru die I have on order from Buckshot. I should be able to eliminate a wrap of two and still see that .311 measurement. Then again.

I'm not sure if additional wraps are a bad thing concerning a boolits fit in its chambers free bore or for having some negative effect on its down range accuracy?

For those who wonder what the paper was I used this time around. It was simply a (heavy weight) wax coated deli wrap paper. The kind of paper used by butchers to cover i.e. deli meat, hamburger, steak prior to their being freezer paper wrapped or bagging. Very sheer, grease resistant & even when wet is purposely made strong so's not to disintegrate. Much much stronger than common home wax paper.

Being the retired at home (family's meat processor.)
I purchased a 500 (sheet) count box of this paper from a Butcher supply business. Its called (Dixie brand Heavy duty) Kabnet waxed deli wrap.
About $8.00 a box.

For those who choose to resize their boolits after their wrapped. This type of paper wrap has a very small amount of wax covering on one side so it could be used with or without any additional lubrication during its resizing. And a couple benefits I suspect for its patcher is what little amount of wax it has may actually act as a sealant when compressed due to a re-sizers friction heat. And of course there's No need to worry about soggy patching happening when this type of paper is used.

[barrabruce]

If you do a pound slug or have done so then you can tell your max overall length of your chamber.
With a neck that is short you have a gap and you can get paper rings from the paper trying to expand into that area or get deposited when it goes through the forcing cone.
Some do some don't .
I do with certain papers and diameters and lubing or lack thereof.
Hope it helps
Barra

[OverMax]

With a neck that is short you have a gap and you can get paper rings from the paper trying to expand into that area or get deposited when it goes through the forcing cone.

Now I get what your referencing too barrabruce. Yup I have encountered the dreaded patch crinkle. It's a given I think we patcher's all see happening sooner or later. Last night I looked around to see what I could use on my bench to reduce the circumference of my brass's neck to a smaller measurement. And I found something that fulfull's the purpose. >a RCBS Trim die. Frankly sir: This paper patching venture for me has been no doubt a "You learn as you go. Kind of process."

[Hardcast416taylor]

"You learn as you go, kind of process". I couldn`t agree with you more on that comment.Robert

[OverMax]

Just got my P/Thru dies from Buckshot. (.302 & .303) Gee's I can't get over the skill and what a fine job of lathing Buckshot did for me. Indeed very_very nice they both are. Now I can get down to business resizing my 311291 Lymans and figure out their p/patch & boolit length required in there M-94 chamber. Pre-trimmed cartridge necks were all squeezed a little smaller with the help of my RCBS Trim die. And a little extra mouth bevel added too earlier so its a matter of boolit & paper measure is all that's left to do. Going to start out with a compressed charge of IMR-4350 and see where that leads me. BTW: I have no intentions of resizing my patched boolits. They should be spot on .311 once their fully dried. I might even try rolling their paper on (dry) for change in technique.

[geargnasher]

"Dreaded paper rings", HERE:



Cause is excess gap between case mouth and end of chamber or paper/sizing diameter/alloy incorrect for application, or some combination of the two. Max preferred gap is .005". It is possible to span a considerable gab using correct components, but such may not suit desires downrange or component availability.

I would not say that "we" all know that trimming to "minimum" specs contributes to crimp uniformity, but would instead point out that uniform trim length in and of itself does, regardless of the exact measurement. Sorting cases by length, culling the shortest ones, and uniforming the length of the remaining lot to the least common denominator minimizes the gap at the end of the chamber, and this can be of great aid. The military cases in the above picture were unusually short, actually just below the minimum trim specification, hence the large paper rings which sometimes had to be removed with a pick lest they interfere with putting the following cartridge fully into battery.

GENERALLY, crimping is entirely unnecessary, only neck tension is needed to hold the bullets under recoil in the magazine unless the brass is quite heavy and the recoil extremely sharp and stout. The .30-30 is different because the brass is thin (less tension available) and breaking a roll crimp isn't particularly deleterious to the patch. The common tubular magazine is a challenge as well. One should be careful of using the magazine anyway because many action designs can and will tear the patch when feeding from the magazine into the chamber......unless you use a "half patch" which involves tucking the leading edge of the paper into the crimp groove and concealing the patch entirely within the case neck. This can be tricky though as the method works best with a full-sized, exposed front driving band (.311", for example), necessitating wrapping a full-sized core and sizing the patched bullet back through the same die, compressing the paper and bands of the bullet a good bit. Not the best for accuracy, but very good for velocity.

Avoiding any resizing of the fully-patched bullet is best because it allows more cushion of the bullet core during the engraving process and is less likely to bend the bullet vs. using thicker paper which must be "post sized". I would suggest experimenting first with un-crimped, single loaded ammunition containing cores sized per the dies in question, wet-patched to throat entrance diameter, seated to engrave the patch firmly in cases whose necks were sized two thousandths smaller on the inside than the patched bullet diameter. 100% natural density or slightly compressed loads are desirable, and certain compacting fillers can be of aid here if you understand what they are and how to use them safely.

Gear

[OverMax]

geargnasher


As read and understood. Its better to use first fires or new brass for the purpose of paper patching verses trimmed brass. But having No choice but to use Max trimed brass. I'll make sure to re-measure my boolits chamber & patch settings prior to any change in my shells lengths. And no doubt be prepared to see those dreaded (Gap Rings.) __In regards to my 30-30s accuracy. I'm not a stickler for its utmost tightest groupings. At 100 yrds I figure 2-3 inch groupings are expected with barrel sights. __Real reason for my wanting to patch. I want to shoot a lesser BHN boolits than I do with G/C or J-word. And again (I don't like complete boolit pass thru's.) I'm a believer of total energy dump in my animals gut. No exit hole/s do I care to see.

[geargnasher]

Actually, you may never see patch rings in a .30-30 unless it is a Savage. All Marlin and most Winchester rifles of which I am aware have no step at the end of the chamber, only a taper to the throat entrance and further taper of the ball seat, so no sharp edges to scrape off patch lint. I have two Savage break-action rifles that have virtually no ball seat and a very abrupt step from end of chamber to the rifling, these do not take paper jackets well.

The paper jacket is certainly an effective way to achieve you desired goal. A scoped rifle in adequate condition can easily shoot better groups with paper jackets than with copper jackets, at equivalent velocity, if you follow the basic guidelines that Pdawg Shooter and I have outlined in the sticky threads.

Gear

[OverMax]

Per Gear:

I have two Savage break-action rifles that have virtually no ball seat and a very abrupt step from end of chamber to the rifling, these do not take paper jackets well.

Does this quote also apply to the Savage levers. As I do have a 1899 lever in 30-30 I was also thinking of patching. But if there is such difficulty encountered as so mentioned? I won't bother too.

[OverMax]

Getting back on topic.
As far as brass lenght. So long as my brass measures to published tolerances. {Minimum to Maximum lengths.} The neck surface itself between the two different measurements left intentionally long or trimmed shorter doesn't seem to inhibit or limit my cartridge necks from their intended purposes. i.e. too brace its paper patched boolit from side to side movement and having just the right amount of tautness as to allow its (patched boolit) uninhibited forward movement during ignition.

I suspect deliberate Neck or F.L. resizing use, may indeed strip a boolit of its patching due to excessive neck compression. And happening irregardless of a sealant being used during a patch papers wrapping.
I (do not) resize my brass. They are simply fire formed brass shot in and cycled through my rifle prior to their P/P reloading. But~~ I do intentionally use a sealant during my boolit's wrapping. Sugared saliva when licking {done so when away from my bench and using Altoids mint candy for the purpose. Which by the way comes with a handy-dandy small transparent sheet of patch paper enclosed in its tin.} Or warm water solution containing a few crushed and diluted Altoids mints when patch (dipping) is preferred. No better (simple) paper sealant have I found to date than diluted sugar & gum Arabic. The two main ingredients used in the making of Altoids mints.

[303Guy]

I've had some success using printer paper. It's thick and compressible and makes for easy tight seating. I'm not so sure about max velocity although it might be just fine for a 30-30.

I have two Savage break-action rifles that have virtually no ball seat and a very abrupt step from end of chamber to the rifling,

Just how sharp are those abrupt steps? Could one head space on them with unsized necks? I headspace my hornet on the case mouth and that has what looks like a 45° step. Unsized necks and jacketed bullets - with a soft paper seating cup.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I have a Savage Model 219 in .30-30 that is a single shot break action. Is this what you are referring to.Robert