303 British brass from 405 win

[screwcutter]

I have several No 4 Enfields with large chambers, I was looking at my Lyman manual and compared 405 Win brass to 303 and decided to get some Hornady 405 Win brass and made up some 303s. Here is a pic of my first try, using a 35 Rem die in between. The one on the right is a HXP 303.




Rounded up 375 H&H die and shortened it to start the necking down, then into 35 Rem with a locking ring to raise it up some, a 8x57 trim die to neck more and cut extra length off and 303FL then trim & chamfer, the rifle i tested in needs the neck turned a bit.
The thicker rim on the 405 brass, can make up for sloppy head space, they will not chamber in barrels that I have setback to SAMMI head space specs.

[EDG]

I made a few .303 from .405 cases and from .444 Marlin too.

The .444 Marlin has to have the head swaged and then turned a little to get it into my .460 diameter chamber.

The .405 brass cases were very tight to too tight on the rim in my rifle. My rifle has a #2 bolt head.
If I used them in large quantity I would thin the thicker rims from the front so they all fit the #2. If I had a better barrel I might use a #3 bolt head and thin all the rims to an exact fit.

But that is not all. My chamber neck is too small to accept the .405 cases so I had to turn the necks down about .0015 effectively creating Lee-Enfield tight neck benchrest type brass.

When set up so the round headspaces on the shoulder combined with the maximum diameter of the .405 case head should give very long case life.

[gbehrman]

30-40 Krag brass should work with some trimming. I use 303 reformed to Krag with just one pass in a full length sizing die. The 303 comes from a large chamber Ross and is a little short but works Ok.

[justingrosche]

Yikes, 405 to 303 Brit. ? Talk about spending a dollar to save a dime!
I have a small bit of 303 brass if your that down on your luck!

[screwcutter]

EDG,
I have a beautiful barrel/bore with a large chamber is my motivation.

gbehrman,
The 30-40 Krag brass I've found measures the same size as the 303.

justingrosche,
It's not about saving anything, but obtaining properly fitting brass.
Thanks for the offer, but i can get/have enough under size 303 brass.

[EDG]

It is more of an exercise in learning. There is nothing cheap about buying .303 brass and having it separate on the 3 or 4th shot. The .405 brass that I experimented with was donated to me. All I had in the project was the work.
If I can make the cases last 30 or 40 reloads I think it is worth using .405 brass to avoid all of the head separations.

In the mean time PPU .303 brass has the largest head (.454 to .455) and the longest head to shoulder length if you want to avoid case stretching as much as possible.

Yikes, 405 to 303 Brit. ? Talk about spending a dollar to save a dime!
I have a small bit of 303 brass if your that down on your luck!

[longbow]

While the oversize chamber may be an issue if really oversize, I have reloaded my .303 brass many times with no case head separations but I have taken to just neck sizing.

I have three Lee Enfields I have shot a fair bit and all have "oversize" chambers (typical military spec) in the sense that the shoulder of full length sized brass looks like it moves about 1/16" at firing (maybe not quite that much but a lot). So yeah, I suspect if I full length sized all my brass I would see head separations frequently.

Also, I found that my RCBS die was sizing the case necks to about 0.310"/0.311" inside. Okay for jacketed boolits of nominal 0.312" but I am using cast boolits of 0.315" so lots of squeezing brass down then opening it up again ~ hard on brass and hard on boolits (they were being sized by the brass). I got a Lee Collet die and made a mandrel to give 0.313" inside the necks. Brass lasts longer and accuracy has improved.

Nothing wrong with forming brass form .405 Win cases if you want but I would still be neck sizing only and using a collet die set to suit the typically oversize boolits so not overworking the necks.

Works for me anyway.

Longbow

[justingrosche]

EDG,
I have a beautiful barrel/bore with a large chamber is my motivation.

gbehrman,
The 30-40 Krag brass I've found measures the same size as the 303.

justingrosche,
It's not about saving anything, but obtaining properly fitting brass.
Thanks for the offer, but i can get/have enough under size 303 brass.

Geez, I didn't mean to insult you. It just seemed odd to me. Usually we reform cases from common case to hard to find cases, not the other way around.
Would setting the barrel back fix your problem?

[EDG]

You have reloaded it many times like 30 to 50 times with no case head separations - with full power jacketed bullet loads? And never had 1 case head separation? What was your motivation for your special loading technique then? It seems since you have never had CHS, you are missing any real proof that the Lee Enfield needs a special reloading technique.

While the oversize chamber may be an issue if really oversize, I have reloaded my .303 brass many times with no case head separations but I have taken to just neck sizing.

I have three Lee Enfields I have shot a fair bit and all have "oversize" chambers (typical military spec) in the sense that the shoulder of full length sized brass looks like it moves about 1/16" at firing (maybe not quite that much but a lot). So yeah, I suspect if I full length sized all my brass I would see head separations frequently.

Also, I found that my RCBS die was sizing the case necks to about 0.310"/0.311" inside. Okay for jacketed boolits of nominal 0.312" but I am using cast boolits of 0.315" so lots of squeezing brass down then opening it up again ~ hard on brass and hard on boolits (they were being sized by the brass). I got a Lee Collet die and made a mandrel to give 0.313" inside the necks. Brass lasts longer and accuracy has improved.

Nothing wrong with forming brass form .405 Win cases if you want but I would still be neck sizing only and using a collet die set to suit the typically oversize boolits so not overworking the necks.

Works for me anyway.

Longbow

[madsenshooter]

I made one, 6mm/30-40AI from 405. I had a bolt body someone had lapped the locking lug on, so wanted a thicker rim. The other 19 cases I sold, too much work! Easier to hold the reamer short and make the cases from the more available .303.

[Geezer in NH]

Using a Lee collet neck die solved my 303 Brit separations I get 10-15 per commercial case. Learned it from the a sight on the net. 303.com

[W.R.Buchanan]

Screwcutter: Just how much oversized are your chambers? I have seen some difference in the position of the shoulder in new, versus fire formed cases in my #4 Mk1. But I have mostly seen this issue being grossly exaggerated by others. The differences in new versus fire formed brass are definitely there, however they really aren't all that bad and will be expected once you understand how the Case/Chamber relationship works.

As you can see in the pics below there is a small amount of change in the position and shape of the shoulder but it is hardly excessive. The case on the left is a new unfired Hornady case and the unfired new loaded round is a PPU 150 gr load. You'll note the shoulders are in basically the same place, as compared to the fire formed PPU case in the center. Is there anything wrong with that fire formed case? I don't think so. The shoulder moved forward about .030 and filled the chamber but the neck is still in the same place. Obviously the shape of the chamber and the shape of the unfired rounds are slightly different.

I have loaded my well used before I got them,,, Winchester/ Remington and misc. cases 5 times now with Cast Boolit Loads with no signs of any case problems. These cases are significantly inferior to the Hornady cases and really inferior to the PPU cases which are a full 10 gr heavier than the new Hornady cases. I expect the PPU cases to go indefinitely if loaded with Cast Boolits.

However,,, and this is the Big Rub! You only neck size these cases. and I am using a Lee Collet Die to do that, as it works the brass the least amount of all dies.

If they lengthen to the point where they won't chamber then bumping the shoulder back .002 will fix it for another stint.

If you full length resize this round every time you reload it will fail in just a few firings simply because everytime you set the shoulder back the case stretches to fill the chamber. Case separation follows soon after.

This cartridge case headspaces on the rim. Whatever happens in front of that is peculiar to that rifle and essentially not any big deal,,, As long as you don't change the shape of the case when you reload it.

You fire formed it on the previous firing and it should go back into the same hole with no problems whatsoever.

Thus the whole "large chamber discussion" is Mute. It doesn't matter if you use the same ammo in the same rifle.

These chambers are all larger than factory loaded ammo, and they were done this way so ammo from anywhere in the world would fit and shoot. They didn't give a ship about reloads as nobody fighting a war is shooting them,,, Except maybe the Taliban.

I recently read an article in Rifle Magazine about the .303 and written by Mike Venturino. He experienced case failure in 3-4 firings with full power jacketed bullet loads without fail. He also Full Length Sized every time. I was surprised he didn't figure this out.

Larry Gibson commented on this on a thread about the .303 and I didn't even bother to question it as it made perfect sense.

It has proven to be true for me so far, and I will let you know if anything changes.

YMMV.

Randy

[screwcutter]

Ok,
When I say oversize chamber I mean by longitude, not latitude I don't worry about shoulder position. The .460" base of the 405 brass fits in the chamber, so it is better than .455" ppu and other smaller stuff. I have some small WW that I have fired a bunch of times with boolit loads that seem to be holding up. If you look at the case on the far right in my OP this is a large HXP case that shows the expansion above the solid head. With this chamber the FL die setup to neck size still sizes the bulge back down with out touching shoulder. I have and use Lee Collet die and the Lee Loader.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I see what you are doing, and I applaud your making cases from scratch. I am curious about the thickness of the .405 brass after you get done with it. Can you weigh one after it is fire formed and trimmed to length?

The PPU O/F brass is 178 gr with the spent primer still in the case.

For my own personal use I will be buying new PPU brass if any of the stuff I have right now ever gives up. So far it appears to be the best out there for this round. Before I found out where to buy it I bought factory loaded PPU ammo for @$14.00 a box and that is where I getting my PPU brass. (SGA Ammo)

I also have to make a bunch of these PPU cases into .35-303 by stuffing them into a .358 win sizing die to expand the case mouths. I am using the PPU cases for these instead of the new Hornady cases simply because of the difference in brass thickness. They will be Neck Sized after firing using the same die backed off. Lee doesn't make a Collet Die that will work for this round and I don't plan on loading these cases that much anyway so I should get decent brass life with the RCBS FL Die backed out to only neck size.

Most of these rounds will be loaded with 250 gr cast, but I also plan some 250 gr Jacket Bullet loads for hunting. They probably won't be shot that much so case life won't be an issue.

Randy

[screwcutter]

Randy,
My once fired, PPU go 177gr, neck turned Hornady 405 go 194gr and unprimed as formed 405 are 196gr. I wish I could make 219 Zipper from 30-30 half as (easy/hard) as these are to form. I have been buying PPU factory loads to shoot for the brass.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Wow, so the .405 brass is that much thicker? 20 gr is a lot of difference. I would think they would hold up indefinitely .

Randy

[slam45]

i have been thinking of making 30-40 krag cases from 405 win as i can't find any 30-40's and my 120 year old win'95 has a long chamber and can use a long neck... i haven't made much progress on this yet as i keep looking for 30-40's but so far they have not showed up...could a 375 win die be used to start forming?
Sam

[Freischütz]

405 case rims are thicker than 30/40s.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I've made 405 cases out of 30-40 Krag. It worked ok except the finished rounds were 1/4 inch too short. They fed and shot well with a bit more fouling in the front of the chamber, but otherwise did well for me at a time when I could not get regular 405 cases yet to be made by Hornady. Used them in a Winchester 1895. LLS

[longbow]

Well, I am a little late responding. Just saw the thread pop up again.

It seems EDG has some questions about my methods and motivations so, while late, here are my answers:

- "You have reloaded it many times like 30 to 50 times with no case head separations - with full power jacketed bullet loads? "

I doubt any have been loaded 30 to 50 times, more like 10 to 15 but in all honesty I don't keep track as well as I might. I'll try to do better.

No head separations, not one, ever.

No not with full jacketed loads I shoot almost exclusively cast so light to moderate loads in the majority of reloads but a few cartridges have seen full jacketed loads in days gone by. Only one or two each though. I didn't segregate them so can't say how many more reloads they have seen.

- "What was your motivation for your special loading technique then?"

My motivation was to stop working the brass so badly and to size more to suit the boolit which is sized for my typical oversize chamber. My RCBS full length sizing die was pushing the shoulder back about 1/16" every time I sized so hard on brass. I was getting occasional split necks and I found the brass work hardening badly at the necks and shoulders.

The dies also sized the neck down to suit the nominal 0.312" jacketed bullet but I am loading 0.315" boolits so suit my typical oversize chamber and bore so again extra working of the brass and I found that I was actually sizing some boolits down at seating since the necks were so tight. So hard on boolits and brass.

To solve both issues I bought a Lee collet die then made a mandrel at 0.313" to size for enough neck tension for my 0.315" boolits. It worked.

I am not sure this qualifies as a "special loading technique" though.

- "It seems since you have never had CHS, you are missing any real proof that the Lee Enfield needs a special reloading technique."

I was trying to solve other problems, not case head separation because I didn't reload the brass enough times in sloppy chambers to experience case head separation... assuming my sloppy chambers actually have too much headspace of which I can't say because I haven't checked them. However, I have read that by neck sizing only excess headspace ceases to be an issue because the fire formed bass fits the chamber perfectly... so no excess headspace.

Again, I don't think this really qualifies as a "special loading" technique. Lots of people neck size only so they do not work brass unnecessarily and so the cartridges are fire formed to the chamber.

So yes, I guess I am missing proof that case head separation in Lee Enfields is problem.

I hope that answers your questions.

Longbow