Decided on the Ruger 45 Long Colt for Deer

[shoot-n-lead]

Well ain't that nice. After starting a 8 page heated debate you choose neither.

NOOBS...they do stuff like that.

[birddog]

VMathias,
The LC is an excellent choice for your needs and in regards to recoil it is dependent more on boolit weight and velocity as pressures have a sharper report and and a general perception to heavier recoil.
Charlie

[vmathias]

The only thing that I don't like about handgun hunting, is shooting subsonic loads. At 900f/s it takes a boolit a full quarter of a second to travel 75yds. It takes the sound of the gun firing exactly 1/5th of a second to travel that same distance. That means the sound of the gunfire will get to the deer 50msec before the boolit will. That's a lot of reaction time for a wild animal. Enough time for them to put a move on and cause the shot to miss them totally or hit them well outside of where the shooter was aiming.

For the wide flat nose boolit like the RF, there is an optimum velocity that causes the most damage in the wound channel, and this is somewhere between about 1150 and 1300f/s, it seems like faster than this creates a pressure wave that actually pushes tissue away from the projectile and can lessen the wound channel considerably. I strive to launch the boolit so it is right above supersonic when it gets to the target. If I got 1175f/s muzzle, and I shoot a deer 35-40yds away, I am right above the 1126f/s sonic barrier when it hits the target. I don't think going subsonic will upset the RF boolit too bad but at 1150f/s when it hits home, I don't have to worry about it. By comparison, a 12ga slug in flight becomes very unstable when it goes subsonic around 110yds from the muzzle.

I took an interesting shot on a gray fox one evening right at dusk, from a distance of 120yds with a .308 from a Ruger M77 rifle. The fox was stalking the farm cat across a paddock, and in the paddock was a large dirt area with a cowpie in one side of it. I put the scope on the fox, and he stopped at the cowpie to check it out. I fired with both eyes open, I saw the muzzle blast, saw the muzzle rise and fall, at the exact moment the shot broke, the fox turned his head and looked directly at me. He also saw the muzzle flash and skedaddled at warp speed. I never saw the fox run, but the crosshairs were on his shoulder and I did not miss this shot. I walked it off and laid my head down at the boolit strike in the dirt, and looked back uphill to the fencepost I had been sitting against, and the shot was dead on. At 2400f/s, it took 0.15 of a second for the boolit to travel the 360' between the fencepost and the boolit strike. That was enough time for the fox to react, and EASILY outrun the boolit.

While this is very possible it doesnt give an animal much reaction time. Also many times when an animal hears a gun shot they have no clue what direction it is coming from. I will agree though that out to further distances a spooked animal will flinch. As far as the Gray Fox goes. That is a small target at 120yards. It is very possible that you had a fur pass through without hitting meat. A round traveling 2400fps at 120 yards is zinging.

[DougGuy]

While this is very possible it doesnt give an animal much reaction time. Also many times when an animal hears a gun shot they have no clue what direction it is coming from. I will agree though that out to further distances a spooked animal will flinch. As far as the Gray Fox goes. That is a small target at 120yards. It is very possible that you had a fur pass through without hitting meat. A round traveling 2400fps at 120 yards is zinging.

I thought huh?????????? When I fired and no fox. This rifle put 3 into a guitar pick @200yds, so I'm confident it did it's part. Fox could have crouched as he took off and it went over his back, could have spun and the boolit went right beside him, so yeah that's possible. I looked for hair and found none. Point is, he got away scot free afaik.. I've had about 3 WAY COOL shots over the years, things you would never in a million years expect to happen, this was one of those.

Good luck with your .45 you will like it. If you need help with cylinder throats, you know how to find me..

[vmathias]

NOOBS...they do stuff like that.

Hmm? I may be a NOOB to the site but I am definitely not a NOOB when it comes to firearms. I've been an instructor for years. . Yes I am a new to revolver hunting and within that debate I learned a lot about all THREE calibers. The 357, 44 Mag AND 45LC. All of your comments on this debate helped me decide. As stated before all comments and info is GREATLY appreciated.

[vmathias]

I thought huh?????????? When I fired and no fox. This rifle put 3 into a guitar pick @200yds, so I'm confident it did it's part. Fox could have crouched as he took off and it went over his back, could have spun and the boolit went right beside him, so yeah that's possible. I looked for hair and found none. Point is, he got away scot free afaik.. I've had about 3 WAY COOL shots over the years, things you would never in a million years expect to happen, this was one of those.

Good luck with your .45 you will like it. If you need help with cylinder throats, you know how to find me..

That is one hell of an accurate cast load. Maybe hitting ya up for some info on that load.

[DougGuy]

This was years before I found this forum, and it is a j-word load. That M77 had been totally inletted, pillar bedded screws and steel bedded with upward pressure at the forend, lapped the bolt lugs, scope rings, bedded them to the action, fireformed brass with 180gr soft point plain base bullets set back .025" from the rifling.

The loads were assembled from 100 fireformed cases, every charge weighed, the ones the bullet seated easy were set aside, the ones that they took a lot of effort to seat were set to the other side, the collet crimped cases were then sorted according to where the crimp ring grabbed onto the case mouth, then each round was loaded into the action and the bolt closed, the loose and the tight ones were set aside, this left maybe 15 rounds that were zeroed at 200yds, out of these I made a 3 shot group that I could cover with a guitar pick from the prone position. I think I still have 3 left and I haven't fired this gun in years.

[vmathias]

This was years before I found this forum, and it is a j-word load. That M77 had been totally inletted, pillar bedded screws and steel bedded with upward pressure at the forend, lapped the bolt lugs, scope rings, bedded them to the action, fireformed brass with 180gr soft point plain base bullets set back .025" from the rifling.

The loads were assembled from 100 fireformed cases, every charge weighed, the ones the bullet seated easy were set aside, the ones that they took a lot of effort to seat were set to the other side, the collet crimped cases were then sorted according to where the crimp ring grabbed onto the case mouth, then each round was loaded into the action and the bolt closed, the loose and the tight ones were set aside, this left maybe 15 rounds that were zeroed at 200yds, out of these I made a 3 shot group that I could cover with a guitar pick from the prone position. I think I still have 3 left and I haven't fired this gun in years.

Ah... I was thinking Cast at 200 yards with that group id phenomenal. I have just started playing with loading cast 100g for my 243. I was VERY impressed at the results the first time out. 80 yards at approx 1750 I was hitting 1.5" groups. Not bad for a start.

[Lonegun1894]

Well ain't that nice. After starting a 8 page heated debate you choose neither.

Just means he fits in, doesn't it? I mean, we all change our minds and then eventually decide to just get one of each.

[vmathias]

Just means he fits in, doesn't it? I mean, we all change our minds and then eventually decide to just get one of each.

You are correct Sir; I will def acquire all three eventually.

[Motor]

vmathias, My post is intended to be a friendly joke as I'm sure the NOOB one was.

With modern brass and a strong gun like the blackhawk it kind of makes you wonder why there is a 45 Win mag. The LC will serve you well I'm sure.

You really need to add the .500 S&W to that wish list though. It's weight combined with its .500" bore make it a light recoiling hard hitting cast boolit launcher. With the right loads of course.

Motor

[NavyVet1959]

But, I will tell you up front, there is no difference in recoil between the 44mag and the colt when comparing comparable loads. This "low pressure"..."less recoil" stuff is a joke. If you doubt this...when you get the gun, stoke some up and light'em off...a picture is worth a thousand words. And, I say this after having shot heavy loads in both cartridges for years...they are an equal handful and not fun to shoot more than a few rounds.

Recoil is a function of momentum and the mass of the firearm. Assuming the mass of the firearm is the same and the weight and velocity of the .45 vs .44 is the same, the momentum is going to be the same. Momentum is conserved, *not* kinetic energy. Now, given two projectiles of exactly the same weight and velocity and non-expanding bullets (of the same profile), the one with the smaller diameter will have more penetration (greater sectional density). If both bullets can punch a hole all the way through whatever you are hunting, then the bullet with the larger diameter would have an advantage in that it will make a larger wound channel.

For example, you would need about a 268 gr bullet in .451" diameter to equal a 255 gr bullet that was 0.429" in diameter (using the more traditional definition of sectional density of "mass / cross sectional area".

[vmathias]

[QUOTE=Motor;3150013]vmathias, My post is intended to be a friendly joke as I'm sure the NOOB one was.

With modern brass and a strong gun like the blackhawk it kind of makes you wonder why there is a 45 Win mag. The LC will serve you well I'm sure.

You really need to add the .500 S&W to that wish list though. It's weight combined with its .500" bore make it a light recoiling hard hitting cast boolit launcher. With the right loads of course.

Motor[/QUOTE

Oh Heck Yeah Motor, Its all good. I am always up for friendly ball busting. Trust me I have worked in a Prison now going on 20 years. I have busted with the best of them. . The 500 would be sweet but I am pretty sure my wife would castrate me if I were to drop that kind of Dough with two kids currently in college, Haha. My max dollar amount right now is around $500. 00... The 45 colt is just one of many pistols I will be purchasing in the future. I will see how she does in the field and make my decision. I was SERIOUSLY considering a 357 mag but after reading many, many reviews both on here and the net I just dont think that will meet the requirements of the 45LC with hand loads. Only time will tell.

[NavyVet1959]

I was SERIOUSLY considering a 357 mag but after reading many, many reviews both on here and the net I just dont think that will meet the requirements of the 45LC with hand loads. Only time will tell.

Well, once you start thinking about a .357 mag, you need to also start thinking about a .357 max...

[shoot-n-lead]

Recoil is a function of momentum and the mass of the firearm. Assuming the mass of the firearm is the same and the weight and velocity of the .45 vs .44 is the same, the momentum is going to be the same. Momentum is conserved, *not* kinetic energy. Now, given two projectiles of exactly the same weight and velocity and non-expanding bullets (of the same profile), the one with the smaller diameter will have more penetration (greater sectional density). If both bullets can punch a hole all the way through whatever you are hunting, then the bullet with the larger diameter would have an advantage in that it will make a larger wound channel.

For example, you would need about a 268 gr bullet in .451" diameter to equal a 255 gr bullet that was 0.429" in diameter (using the more traditional definition of sectional density of "mass / cross sectional area".

I understand this on recoil...that is what I said...same recoil.

Also, there is no discernible difference in the performance of these 2 rounds on deer...been there and done that. The deer nor the shooter can tell the difference.

[vmathias]

Well, once you start thinking about a .357 mag, you need to also start thinking about a .357 max...

I have heard of the 357 Max but have never seen a pistol in this caliber.

[NavyVet1959]

I have heard of the 357 Max but have never seen a pistol in this caliber.

The .357 max would best be served with a longer barrel to take better advantage of the increased powder capacity.

[vmathias]

The .357 max would best be served with a longer barrel to take better advantage of the increased powder capacity.

Is this a modified 357 mag?

[NavyVet1959]

Is this a modified 357 mag?

The .357 max is the next step up from a .357 mag, just like the .357 mag is the next step up from a .38 special. From the look of it though, Ruger actually produced it in the .357 max caliber.

According to the wiki page, Ruger only made 400 Blackhawks chambered in .357 max.

[hornady308]

Most 357 Maxes I see are just like mine...a 10" barrel on a Contender. I use the same heavy bullets in it that I use in the 35 Remington.