8x58R from 45/90 brass?

[Dutchman]

Case dimensions for 8x58R Danish from Denmark & Sweden.

Danish military issue case dated 1931:

case OAL = 2.272"
head diameter = .501"
rim diameter = .574"
rim thickness = .058"
bullet diameter
at case mouth = .323"

Norma commercial 8x58RD
headstamp = Norma 8mm m/89

case OAL = 2.266"
head diameter = .501"
rim diameter = .576"
rim thickness = .059"
bullet diameter
at case mouth = .323"

[craig61a]

I've spent the summer playing with Snider's and Martini's, now I'm working with my rollers again. I shot one of them a while back and I had good results. I'm currently getting another one ready to fire, and as I mentioned formed up cases the other day.

I did mention that the rims on the cases for the second one wouldn't allow them to chamber and I trimmed them down to .590". The first roller did allow the formed cases to chamber without trimming the rims, so I never bothered to trim them.

So tonight I had the fired cases out and I tried chambering them. They did not chamber as easily as they did when first fired. So I was a little puzzled, then I realized that the rims were probably not concentric to the axis of the body of the case, and with such little clearance of the rim they might have not been centered in the chamber when fired. And since the case walls expand just ahead of the head about .004" or so, there was some resistance. If I turned the case to a particular orientation the case slid in easily. So I took a few of the cases that fit more tightly and trimmed the rims down, first to .590", then down to .580". This did relieve the tightness of chambering them, some more so than others. Of course I could do more of a full length sizing on them to help correct the issue, but for now I'll just experiment with turning the rims down.

This left me with the thought that I should probably just turn all the rims down on cases I form, so as not to have the rims pushing the alignment of the body slightly out of center. I also wrapped one wrap of electrical tape around the base about 1/4" wide. It does insert with a little resistance into the chamber, but I think that will help keep the base reasonably aligned in the chamber. I would only have to do this once to fire form the case, and then I don't expect I'll have any further issues as I experienced previously. I hope to get out and test this out before deer season opens in few weeks, otherwise it will be December before I can get around to it.

[craig61a]

Well I had 16 out of 50 cases in the batch for the first rolling block that hadn't been fired yet. I took the rims down to .590", cut a little chamfer on the body side of the rim, and taped as described above. I filled the cases with 28 gr. of H4198, 1 gr. of Polyfil, topped with a 8mm Max boolit and headed out to the range.

Accuracy was excellent. The tape did give me some trouble closing the block but I was able with a little firm pressure to get the rounds chambered. After fire forming I removed the tape and chambered the empty case in a variety of orientations. No resistance whatsoever...The block clicked shut with ease.

It's taken me a while and some research and experimenting, but I have the process down for sizing, trimming, and fire forming that yields very good cases with a minimum of hassle. Yeah the process is still a little involved, but I get 100% yield and cases that are like they came from a factory.

I anneal the necks after forming. The one down side - the throats are quite roomy, and the necks blow out about .010", so re-sizing does work the brass a little more than I'd prefer, but a .335" boolit ain't gonna work in this. I plan to re-anneal the neck every other firing and see how much mileage I can get out the cases. If they hold for 5-6 reloadings, that averages out to $ .15 - .20 per reload. Hopefully they'll go quite a few more reloadings.

[FAsmus]

Craig;

Thanks for sharing all of that interesting work.

Here my summer's shooting did not include anything with the 8x58 - there being just too much other stuff going on with cast bullet shooting/reloading and, of all things, two new pups being brought into my life.

My main trouble with the Swede is sights. As purchased it had no iron on it at all - the previous owner had been using one of those externally adjustable outfits. His scope system worked well but was not part of our deal; I had to come up with my own and my options do not include the type scope he was using.

~ So, I'm using one of my old 12X Leupold target scopes. This works but only marginally since I cannot mount it far enough back for the eye relief to become comfortable - it remains only just barely usable and thus I find myself selecting my good 7x57 M1908 Brazilian Mauser for my long-range silhouette shooting instead.

The roller shoots reliably into 5x1.500 or so @ 100 yards. I have had no case loss through over-working the cases. I have found that neck sizing only the first 0.200 of the neck is plenty to retain the 8mm Max bullets since they seat WAY out there anyway. The loaded ammunition is a little stiff to chamber so I take along my 6-ounce 'dead-blow' soft face hammer to tap the breech block firmly shut the last little bit instead of trying to do it by hand pressure alone.

My 'standard' load is 34 grains Varget. This is enough to seal the chamber properly - I no longer get lube blow-by on fired case bodies and shoots quite well.

Good shooting - Forrest

[leadman]

Sounds like you have it going well. I haven't shot my 8X58RD in awhile now. Hunting seasons are over for me this year so hope to get back to a regular schedule at the range.
I do not load my boolits long enough to hit the rifling because as you found out some method of closing the block is needed to get the gun to fire.
The Lyman 160gr RN GC is a short boolit but it shoots very well even set back from the rifling a ways. Still shoots well enough to embarass some of the black rifle shooters!
You might be correct in your finding on the smoked necks. I want to shoot some of my Hi-Tek coated boolits to see what the do. These are a clean to shoot as most jacketed bullet ammo. I have gotten excellent accuracy and surpassed jacketed bullet velocities in a couple of other rifles so I think they will shoot just fine.
I have not shot iron sights since I was told several months ago that I have 2 cataracts. These are supposed to be just starting and no surgery is needed yet. But why is everything dimmer now?

My rifle still has the original front sight from the conversion and a cut down rear sight. I installed a cheap tang sight I had in the holes that were already in the top tang. The tang sight would be hard to use in competition since the eyepiece when loosened moved windage also.

[craig61a]

Craig;

The loaded ammunition is a little stiff to chamber so I take along my 6-ounce 'dead-blow' soft face hammer to tap the breech block firmly shut the last little bit instead of trying to do it by hand pressure alone.

Do you have the bullet seated so far out it's contacting the leade before it's fully chambered?

I've been thinking of making a base I could pin into the existing rear sight mount so I could mount a LER scope on one of these - just what I need another project...

[FAsmus]

Craig;

In a word, yes, I do seat to a length such that the nose just contacts the origin of rifling. ~ Not to be engraved, just to touch. (see previous posting, this thread)

The breech block needs the slight encouragement mostly to save the palm of my hand which gets tired of the heavy pressure needed to securely lock the action every time a round is chambered. ~ Most of the time the action is easily locked by hand pressure, I just like to be certain with this old turkey..

- F

[craig61a]

One though that occurred to me was that your brass might be a little 'lopsided'. I noticed with my brass that I shot the first time around that some where tough to chamber. I attribute this to not having the bases taped as I did on my last outing. The brass is out of round, well not really but the rear section is not really concentric with the base of the case. I'll have to look into this more and see what happens when I fire that brass again.

I tried re-sizing the brass from the first rifle that I had trouble chambering. First case ended up getting stuck in the die. I annealed a piece of brass and ran it up in the die, I had to work in steps. the CH4D dies I have do work the brass quite a bit after it's been fire formed.

So I guess the key thing I've learned is it's prudent to tape the bases when fire-forming so that the alignment of the case is proper...

[craig61a]

One other interesting note: I trimmed for an OAL of 2.280" initially, and after firing the cases shortened to about 2.275" on average.

[craig61a]

[GWM]

Thank you all for this very interesting thread

[FAsmus]

Craig;

That is an impressive series of dies!

I was much more primitive in this project. The first FL die was a C&H 4D from Buffalo Arms. This tool didn't work well, crumpling cases more often than not. I gave up and borrowed a RCBS Custom shop FL die and things went much better.

With the borrowed RCBS I could and did size 8x56R from cut-down 45/90 brass with just the one FL die. I could not do it one pass of course. Instead I "short-stroked" the procedure ~ advancing the die in the press little-by-little until the case was fully formed. This provided me the greatest mechanical advantage and with the smooth RCBS die I did not loose any more basic brass.

The light soft-face mallet is needed to fully chamber the loaded rounds because I seat the bullets just-so: engraving the first band just a little. It is really not a force fit - I can do it by hand. The little mallet is just easier.

Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Up-date on the Swede is like this;

I took it down to my local gunsmith and had him shorten the 33-inch barrel to 30-inches. This removed the old unused front sight and old "Marble" ramp. It also made the rifle's appearance more balanced instead of looking like a spaghetti barreled weird-o.

He also made a custom base for my standard Redfield-type rings machined with 0.050 cut into it that allows for the additional elevations I normally find enjoyable to be reached with internal scope adjustment capabilities from 100 yards on out to our max distance of 834 yards. I also bought and installed a new Leopold 4X scope, replacing the old 12x..

This work was done very well.

Naturally I then loaded up some previously used loads to see if the rifle still 'liked' them ~ having been changed somewhat.

I had in the mean-time located and installed an original "issue" type butt-stock, complete with the Swedish military emblem. This made it's overall appearance much more satisfactory to me.

I loaded the combination of the LEE 8mm "Max" at 245 grains and 34 grains of 'Varget'.

For testing @100 yards I got settled in and fired 30 rounds for confirmation of performance.

The shooting went well. The only thing I noted was that as firing progressed in a given group the shots 'strung' ~ moving higher as the group developed and the rifle warmed up.

I found that by 'holding' just a little low as a group progressed I could and did reliably generate groups of less than 5x1.500. For this riffle in my hands I'm satisfied.

The only difficulty I encountered was the fairly high level of recoil. The rifle as configured is fairly light, so, I was moved to locate and put on my recoil pad that is usually used when shooting things like 45/90 and 50/90SS.

I do believe I'll locate and try some loads that provide accuracy and reduced levels of recoil.

Good afternoon, Forrest

[enfield]

where did the Varget load data come from ?

[GWM]

This work was done very well.

Pics?

[FAsmus]

Enfield;

"Where did the Varget load data come from ?"

F: I worked it up myself; slowly, carefully.

Good morning

[FAsmus]

GWM:

I'll work on that ~

F

[taco650]

Talk about resurrections LOL! This thread started over a year ago.

Anyway...

FAsmus,

You asked in an earlier post about why a harder lead bullet would allow gas blow back and I don't think you ever got an answer. Making your boolits too hard won't allow them to "upset" at the base when the gas hits them. This "upset" is where the slug actually swells from gas pressure and fully fills the rifling and seals the bore. This sealing makes the lube work like its supposed to, keeps the gases behind the boolit (for more velocity) and usually reduces leading. FYI, all this info I learned from this web site.

[FAsmus]

Taco650;

Yes, I know about softer alloys sealing the bore better. ~ I use this knowledge pretty much all the time, especially in revolver shooting.

Here the problem seems to be different - that is the bore seals well - it has to since my bullets are at least 0.002 larger than the groove diameter.

After some 300 experimental rounds it seems that the problem is associated with an excessively long and spacious throat. The 'smoked' cases are seen with loads that I know have considerable operational pressure - well able to seal the case to the chamber walls.. Still they smoked until I found that sizing them only the first 0.100 of the neck, and the neck only, worked! Shooting no longer smoked cases all the way back to the case body the way they used to do. ~ Only the first 0.100 that had been sized was smoked. ~ Which is, by-the-way, something I have seen in other cartridges.

To give you an idea about the throat, it is oversize (the diameter is un-measured as yet) but it easily swallows the 0.325 bullets without touching a thing. And it is long, going a full 0.500 ahead of the case mouth before even the slightest engravement of the bullet nose is seen. ~ And even this allows some room between the nose diameter and and first driving band. This room and plenty for gas to leak back wherever it pleases during firing.

The over-all length of a loaded round with the LEE 8mm "Max" is 3.470! Only the GC and about 0.050 of the next driving band is in the case at all.

If I could find a 220+ grain 8mm mold that cast at 0.326 or so I think this problem would be completely cured.

Could you tell me which post of mine has the remark you have used? I'd like to re-read it!

FAsmus

[leadman]

I personally would hesitate to shoot your Varget load. These are old guns and with unknown histories. When these come apart is appears the rolling blocks break at the pin holes and the upper chunk of metal is propelled rearward, until it hits the shooter in the head/ eye area. There are pictures here that Dutchman posted or linked to showing what happens to the gun. Shooters of some of these broken guns have not survived the experience. Also easy to find them on the internet.
To help the case necks center in the large chamber neck area I leave some of the flared neck to center the neck and also act as a seal to keep the gases forward of the case.
Engraving the front of the boolit into the rifling is something I try to avoid also. With the damage and arthritis in my hands it is easier for me to load so the boolit is a couple thousands off the rifling. I did experiment one time with nose engraving but it did not result in smaller groups so don't do it anymore.
To increase the size of the boolit coming from your you can cast a couple boolits from each cavity and make a paste of Comet or other abrasive cleaner and coat the boolit lightly with this (keep it off the gas check shank) and spin it in the cavity a bit with a slow drill of screwdriver on a screw turned into the boolit base. Keep hand pressure on the handles as you are turning the boolit. Should cut .001" in a short time so check often.