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The strongest reason for the people to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against the tyranny of government.
-- Thomas Jefferson
Wrong caliber!! Notice where it says "Sauer"? That's not 8x58R Danish..Originally Posted by Skipper
FYI Bertrum brass in 8x58R Danish is undersized in the body and will crack.
These Bertrum split from FIRE forming. Not even regular loads with bullets.
Last edited by Dutchman; 04-14-2015 at 07:44 PM.
Dutchman;
I appriciate your comments here and for spreading the word about the limitations of the Swedish Rolling Block as re-barreled to 8x58R.
OK
On the other hand you have NOT shared any relivent information about your own experiences with the caliber and the rifle it is chambered in. You have not told us anything about how you form your cases. You have not shared any loading combinations, to include bullet designs, that have provided good performance within the limitations you have given.
Really - I know I'd like to know more about these things of yours. If you have posted them elsewhere - just say so.
Good morning,
Forrest
I recently formed more cases out of Starline 45-100. I start with approximately 6 second annealing, followed by a 40-82, then a 38-56, 350 Mag, and then final size with CH4D 8x58R full length. I turn the 8X58R die in until it bottoms on the mouth of the case, and then proceed one turn at a time until it's fully sized. I then neck size with a Lee Collet die in 8x57. I need to get a mandrel in .324 since I shoot my boolits sized at .325... I have a .324 sizer ball for the CH4D dies but I find that the die overworks the brass, since IIRC the mouth diameter of the sized cases without using the sizer is down around .315 or so - and I plan getting that opened up a little anyways.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.
Thomas Jefferson
Gentlemen;
I did some shooting on Saturday with the 8x58R as chambered in the Rolling Block.
I ran the cases through the tumbler (vibrater really) inspected them and I thought my results might be interesting to the membership.
Here are two cases, both loaded with HT 240 gr LEE 8mm 'Max' in the Swede.
The one on the left was charged with 31.5 gr IMR 4198. The one on the right was charged with 30.0 gr IMR 4895. ~ Here they are;
The photos are small, sure, but just do the ctrl+mouse wheel to enlarge. As you can see they are the same two cases, just from slightly different positions to hopefully show the necks as clearly as possible.
On both cases it is easy to see where my die sized the necks just enough to retain the bullet. The rounds were fired normally, the cases cleaned, lightly polished with steel wool and their picture taken.
Both necks at the sized portion measure 0.3495. The necks behind the sized portion - where they were first fully fire-formed from reformed 45/90 brass measure 0.3685 to 0.3690.
This indicates to me that my loads above did not have nearly enough pressure to fully expand the necks all the way to the mouths of the cases. Low, in other words. ~ Really low.
This observation is backed up by the fact that ALL the cases fired that day (51) were covered with light bullet lube blow-back. "Smoked" is what we call it, further indicating pressures far enough on the on the low side to prevent proper gas sealing with the chamber walls. ~ And remember, all of these cases were fully expanded during fire-forming.
Down-range results have indicated that light loads just are not what this rifle and caliber prefer for accurate shooting. The light stuff with 4759 causes the hits to string up and down in a straight line about 8 inches tall @100 yards!
It seems that greater amounts of medium burning powders like Varget, 4895 and the ones just a little faster like 4198 are indicated in further testing.
And, by the way, my Buffalo Arms die will not squeeze the necks down any further than 0.348, making the ID go right around 0.3245! ~ That isn't much for secure bullet retention for my 8mm 'Max' sized to 0.3250!
You may be sure that once chambered I'll shoot the bullets out the muzzle, never attempting to extract a live round and scatter powder all over the place!
Good afternoon,
Forrest
Fireform 7,62x54R brass; use a fastburning powser and a filler (cream of wheat or simillar) and fire with muzzel pointing straight up. Annealing is always good.
Cases will be a little short, guess what- it does not matterThe gun cant tell and the cases last as long as anything else.
Do not overdo it, keep loads on the light side; I use Lapua brass, 196grs SPBT bullets pulled from old mauser-ammo and 42grains Vithavouri N140.
I've been called out!!
I've used mostly Buffalo Arms formed cases with rather poor results. They are extremely brittle and require annealing BEFORE shooting. I've also used standard .45-70 cases that were short but performed just fine. I have some original Norma m/89 Boxer primed cases but will not use them.
Cast bullets used:
Lyman 323470 sized .324"
RCBS 32-170-FN sized .323" -- these shot rather well.
I have some Lyman 323471 but have not loaded them in this caliber. I also have a new NOE 326471 mold that I've not yet got good bullets from (not fully broke in yet). I have high hopes for 323471 and 326471 in 8x58RD and 8x57 Mauser.
I decided early on to restrict this rifle to cast bullet shooting only and then to keep velocities below 1,800 fps. In other words, fairly traditional cast bullet speeds. I did experiment early on with IMR3031 using Portuguese 196 gr FMJ/BT .323" with medicore results.
Powders used: Unique, 2400, Rx7, 700X. I have some 5744 that I will try. Can't imagine getting better results than with Unique and 2400.
The four shot cluster at the bottom... don't recall what they were. Switched to the 2nd batch and sat there watching while they all went into one hole. Figured I wasn't going to get much better than that.
This was a starting load with this bullet and powder. 170 gr FN RCBS .323" purchased from Gardner's Cache. Powder was 20.5 grs Rx7. Safe load level with this bullet and I did some better than this.
Buffalo Arms brass. Don't know how many times fired but they were annealed before first firing.
This rifle slugs .324" groove diameter. I've gotten some excellent results with .323" and .324" bullets so far.
Dutchman;
You say; I've been called out!!
F: Not really ~ it's just that I want to pick your brain.
D: I've used mostly Buffalo Arms formed cases with rather poor results. They are extremely brittle and require annealing BEFORE shooting. I've also used standard 45/70 cases that were short but performed just fine. I have some original Norma m/89 Boxer primed cases but will not use them.
F: This Starline 45/90 brass seems to be working well. I had a lot to learn since this was the first major case-forming I've done. The rims were easy and I guessed the trimming perfectly such that the cases, once formed and fire-formed wound up exactly at 2.295 – or 0.002 shorter than the full 58mm which is 2.2968. I kind of liked that.
D: Cast bullets used:
Lyman 323470 sized .324"
RCBS 32-170-FN sized .323" -- these shot rather well.
F: All I have used in this rifle is the LEE 8mm “Max”, 242 grains at 0.325, heat-treated as hard as I can make them. I'll show one here as loaded. As you can see, almost the full length of the bullet is exposed in the loaded cartridge. This is because it has to be WAY out there in order to touch the origin of rifling. As seated only the GC and about ¼ of the first band enter the mouth of the cases. The rifle has a 9:1 twist which will stabilize the long bullet – but any slower than about 1700 will show out-of-round bullet holes in the paper.
Talk about long throated rifles! This one has more than I've ever seen. Overall length of the loaded round is 3.370.
D: I have some Lyman 323471 but have not loaded them in this caliber. I also have a new NOE 326471 mold that I've not yet got good bullets from (not fully broke in yet). I have high hopes for 323471 and 326471 in 8x58RD and 8x57 Mauser.
F: I have a M48 Mauser that I have been working on. It shoots the SAECO 62081 quite well over 31.0 gr of Varget. ~ This bullet is much too short for the Swede.
D: I decided early on to restrict this rifle to cast bullet shooting only and then to keep velocities below 1,800 fps. In other words, fairly traditional cast bullet speeds. I did experiment early on with IMR3031 using Portuguese 196 gr FMJ/BT .323" with medicore results.
F: I'm not worrying too much about velocity. As I noted in my post I am finding that the cartridge/rifle seems to prefer medium-speed powders under the long LEE bullet. I'm convinced that the barrel is good and I figure things will come together soon around 2000 ft/sec.
D: Powders used: Unique, 2400, Rx7, 700X. I have some 5744 that I will try. Can't imagine getting better results than with Unique and 2400.
F: The previous owner of this rifle worked with 5744 – finding that 28 grains under the LEE bullet worked quite well. Unfortunately, I don't have any 5744 ~
F: Was all your shooting at 50 yards?
Here all my short range load developmental shooting is done at 100 and if all seems well the rifle goes up to the hill-top range where we work things on out to 834 yards.
This was where my initial load of 4759 fell flat on its face, showing terrible high/low problems at any distance at all due to erratic velocity spreads.. ~ Back to the loading bench!
Last edited by FAsmus; 05-04-2015 at 10:28 AM. Reason: format error
I shoot the Lee Karabiner and a Lyman 170gr Loverin boolit in my RB with the alloy from 11 BHN to 15 BHN. Could a too hard boolit be some of the cause of your low pressure results?
I use 12grs of Unique with the Lyman boolit and 22grs of SR4759 with the 239gr Lee Karabiner. The Lyman boolit will shoot into 1 1/2" most of the time at 100 yards. The Lee will do 4" to 5" most of the time at 200 yards.
Went to the garage to confirm my powder charges and found I have almost no loaded ammo made up for this rifle! This is a good time to try some Hi-Tek coated boolits in this cartridge. This will eleminate the exposed wax type lube maybe picking up dirt.
Bob Shell wrote an article on this gun quite awhile ago that you should be able to access on-line. He loaded it beyond 30-06 velocities and ended up spreading the sides of the action apart. He didn't know how close he came to ending up with parts of the gun in his eye!
Leadman;
Tell me why hardened lead alloy bullets would cause case blow-by smoking?
Thanks,
Forrest
Gentlemen;
I have been out shooting the Swede today ~ more load development stuff.
Here are two pictures. The one shows the two groups fired with 34.0 grins Varget as posted on my data sheet, complete with the loading information. The one with the two fired cases shows how much lube blow-by was deposited on the cases by this shooting.
To me this indicates a low-pressure load, even though the heavy bullet and case capacity, being just a tad more than 30'06, would lead me to expect at least a 'moderate' pressure level.
Now, right at the moment this level of Varget is plenty powerful and the 5x1.550 or so group size shows that the accuracy is good enough to take it to the next level ~ that is; load 60 for long-range testing on the hill-top range, on out to 834 yards..
Forrest
Gentlemen;
Here in the loading room this morning I had a thought about that blow-by case fouling; I think it may not be associated with low pressure after all.
What does the membership think about the impressively long throat in this rifle? I'm thinking that the powder gasses are finding their way around the bullet as it rests in the chamber during firing and pouring back over the neck and body of the case ~ thus showing the moderate to heavy lube fouling that I have encountered..
What'dya think?
Forrest
Gentlemen;
Shooting with the Swedish rolling block continues ~
The rifle seems to prefer the moderate level of power for it to shoot well.
I have settled on 33.5 grains Varget under the 242 grain LEE 8mm 'Max' and taken the rifle out on the hill-top range to get elevation numbers for all silhouette distances.
This presented problems in that it has been quite rainy here and there isn't any way to self-spot since there is no dust from misses.
Then I found that my 12x Leupold that I use for shooting group/accuracy testing is not user-friendly for shooting over the course of fire: The elevation graduations read backwards! The darn thing has numbers all right but "up" starts at 15 and "down" is zero ~ this means that when you increase the elevation the numbers get smaller! Yuck.
Then the far 835 yard target is far enough that changing from the 670 yard distance is a matter of guessing how much to add because there is bout 37 minutes of change as the bullets begin to fall out of the sky between the two targets. Not only that but a 6X Burris over the same distance only needed a counted +17 increase! ~ Ah well. I found the steel eventually.
I include a picture of a spent bullet collected at the 587 yard distance. It hit soft dirt and only the nose is damaged much at all. Alongside is a fresh as-cast example.
The grooves on this bullet measure 0.3231 and the bore is 0.3133. I know from experience that bullets fired over full-power cast bullet loads will actually be about 0.001 under the groove size in the rifle as determined by other methods. To me this means that my sizing is right-on at 0.325, or 0.001 over groove diameter.
Good day, Forrest
I bought dies and a hundred 45-90 cases formed from the Great Buffalo. Yes, I annealed them before loading, and after every other firing. My rifle is a Krag repeater. So far, so good. I'm shooting about 33gr of Tubal-2000 with the NOE boolit. I have a good source for 3% antimony 97% lead alloy. I put 50lbs in the 80lb WAAGE pot and add a pound of tin. I am shooting mine unsized, they drop at .326"+/- on to a towel. I pick them up with a pair of hemostats, look at the base, and set them base down into a wooden block that holds 60 boolits. Then I flux and repeat. It's a trick I learned from HM Pope.
If a hard boolit is not sealing the bore the pressure in the case and chamber will be lower than if the boolit had sealed the bore completely. One thing you might change is after the cases are fireformed do not use the full length sizer die to size the neck. I use an 8 X 57 Mauser Lee collet die. This way the shoulder is not touched at all along with the case body. I have found with several of my old rifles that the full length die will size the body and possibly the shoulder areas. You might want to check before and after case dimensions.
A member here posted some time back that he way using 338 Win Mag. brass to make the 8X 58RD from. I found a few of these cases yesterday in my garage and it does appear they can be converted. I have put them aside for later.
When I form 45-70 to 8 X 58 RD I do not anneal but make short length passes and this seems to form the brass well with no wrinkles. We used to do this when reforming metal in a hydraulic press at work and it made a better end product than reforming the metal in one pass.
Leadman;
You say: If a hard bullet is not sealing the bore the pressure in the case and chamber will be lower than if the bullet had sealed the bore completely. One thing you might change is after the cases are fireformed do not use the full length sizer die to size the neck.
F: My reworked 45/90 brass has not seen any additional sizing since it was formed and then fire-formed.
You see, with the extra long LEE 8mm 'Max' I cannot reach the origin of rifling with the bullet unless the overall cartridge length is 3.470 - or 1.170 longer than the case itself! In turn this means that only the GC and about 0.060 of the bullet body are in the neck of the cases. Thus, I only bother to slightly size only this portion of them. You may note the marks on the picture of my cases in previous posts.. Even then the ID of the necks is not reduced enough to touch the expander button, yet, my 0.3250 bullets are securely retained in the cases.
~ But! Do not make the mistake of attempting to extract a loaded round: The bullet will remain stuck in the rifling!
Leadman; I use an 8 X 57 Mauser Lee collet die.
F: How do you fit the 45/90 cases far enough into a LEE 8x57 die? They are much too big!
Leadman: This way the shoulder is not touched at all along with the case body. I have found with several of my old rifles that the full length die will size the body and possibly the shoulder areas. You might want to check before and after case dimensions.
F: You may be absolutely certain that I have done so.
Leadman: When I form 45-70 to 8 X 58 RD I do not anneal but make short length passes and this seems to form the brass well with no wrinkles. We used to do this when reforming metal in a hydraulic press at work and it made a better end product than reforming the metal in one pass.
F: How can you possibly make the 45/70 cases long enough to match the 8x58R chamber? I only sized one 45/70 case, measured it and found it to be nearly 0.200 short of the necessary 3.298 of the 8x58R specified overall length.
As for only forming cases by slow increments of the die ~ this is without doubt the only way that works at all.
I have a theory about smoked cases: The huge length of what may be called 'freebore' or perhaps 'throat length' in this rifle's chamber combined with all the bullet lube exposed by seating the bullets so far out may be the culprit. The lube is simply vaporized and goes wherever it can as each round is fired.
Also, as each case is fired again and again they fit better and better. By now, with 6 or 8 cycles each smoking has fallen off a great deal.
Thanks for the post, Forrest
Last edited by FAsmus; 06-12-2015 at 10:42 PM.
Leadman;
I take it back - the LEE 8x57 collet tool does work just like you said it did.
Amazing. Thanks for the tip.
Forrest
I am looking at getting one of these rifles soon. Would you guys recommend getting the CH4D die set?
Jrap;
Nope!
My first try was CH4D die set.
I freely admit that I was a raw beginner at case-forming procedures. I was inexperienced enough that I didn't know what a proper forming die felt like when in use. ~ No matter what I did so far as annealing and careful lubing and press procedures I was ruining cases with the CH4Ds and even the ones that came out properly formed showed marked stress cracks right where you don't want them.
I quit trying after it seemed that I couldn't figure it out. Then a fellow here in town, hearing of my troubles said; "Here - try my RCBS forming dies!" ~ He loaned me his RCBS Custom-shop die. What a difference! When I was done I returned my friend's die and ordered one of my own.
NOTE: See my post at the beginning of this thread for the details concerning these procedures..
So - my advise is to call the RCBS Custom-shop. They might even have a sizing die in stock. If not the wait will be worth it - or - we might be able to work out a loan between the two of us ~ delivery of a custom die sometimes takes a couple months!
Good morning,
Forrest
Last edited by FAsmus; 07-27-2015 at 11:43 AM. Reason: additionl text
I just made up another batch of cases over the weekend for another 8x58R roller I picked up. I had to take the rims down to .590" on these; the other one I have works just fine with the rims left they are. And I also found that I can just back the 8x58R sizing die out 2 1/2 turns and go with half turns back in to form the shoulder. So basically just 8 press operations. I still haven't got the CH4D sizing die opened up or the larger mandrel for the Lee die... Guess I better get on it, but it's been a busy summer.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.
Thomas Jefferson
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