SLOW Twists and FAST Casts Using CUSTOM Barrels...Results, Please?

[frnkeore]

This particular thread, seems to be setting a record for number of post per minute So, I thought I'd try to get one in (but, I'm sure I'll miss a lot while typing)

1. There seems to be a common denominator in this problem that has arisen. We'll call it factor "X".

2. As most of you know, I've had my fair (more than) of "conversations" with with the "X" factor.

3. If you take the "I" or "I'm" out of the X factor, it leaves almost no text or content.

4. Yes, some people that are posting in these threads are guilty of BAITING, I have been baited by one of them.

5. If you comminicate using condesending attitudes, things go wrong in a hurry.

6. Respect is assured where respect is given. That is the main thing that the X factor is lacking.

7. For a group of people on this forum, if you disagree with the X, your looked down on and any input you might have is discount or ignored but, facts are facts and are the elephant in the room regarding RPM.

8. Regarding the locked RPM sticky, it's really worthless information. It was done with 3 different rifles, with three different barrel weights and I believe 2 different calibers. It was also done un-scientifically by a person with a predetermined opinion.

9. I'm not a proponant of fast twist, my slowest twist 30 cal is a 12. But, when you see people in competition shooting a 8 twist rifle at 2000+ (almost 190,000 rpm) and another shooting 3300 at 170,000 rpm with the 8 twist being the more accurate, it certainly can make you wonder if the "treashold" is fact or fanticy! It could actually be a hall way (my term) to bigger better things as it doesn't effect accuracy the way it's been stated. Accuracy needs to be come WORSE for it to be fact!!!

10. In defence of production rifles, they are at a disadvantage. With there light weight, recoil control is a issue and the rounded forearms are also hard to control. Plus, no one seems to be willing to rethroat to make them more accurate in aligning and controlling the deformation into the leade with a shollower angle.

11. I think that things could be moderated, fairly well by removing sentences that use the word "I" "my" or "I'm"

12. Lets for get about RPMTH, post your info, give us your velocity and your twist rate and NEVER tell anyone that your problem is because your spinning your bullet to fast.

Frank

[44man]

I have seen over spin in action during my varmint days when a blade of grass in front of paper exploded a bullet into a million pieces but it did the same in chucks and crows with just wings floating out of trees. You could hear the bullet hit at 500 yards.
At what point does lead give out from the forces? Does lead get the skin melted off from friction in the bore? Questions I sure can't answer. Yet some get astounding velocities from cast.
This subject will never be a calm one but to argue about it all the time will never get any answers to what is best in each gun and with each boolit.
The only facts I know is if you under spin, your range will get shorter. Over spin will increase short range groups but are better at long ranges. You still need to find what your boolit will take.
I watched too many under spun boolits veer off after so far with a good scope. I have watched over spun rotate around the flight path, then settle or "go to sleep."

[303Guy]

Interesting that you have actually seen these things happening, 44man. I have only seen a 22lr bullet arcing away and the shiny streak of a bullet/boolit as it reflects sunlight on its way to the target. The 22 bullets travelled in a simple arc and the reflected streak was way too quick to see the path. The 22 bullets were with a naked eye. Oh, I have seen air rifle pellets wobble their way to the target (and actually hit), fired from a smooth bore.

Then we've been shown a photo of a boolit that had elongated into a corkscrew shape! It hit the paper sideways.

[44man]

Amazing what you can see with a good spotting scope.

[dtknowles]

I think I have just skimmed over a couple pages of unflattering posts. I could not bring myself to read them in detail, could have done without reading any of them. Nothing to be learned from them. I did not need someone to give me their slant on what they think is going on. I will probably continue to read or at least skim these threads but I will post my groups in my own thread, I will call it 30 BR range report.

Tim

[Hamish]

I would like to see what the slow twist, custom barrel guys can do with cast. I think cainttype's suggestion is worthy of implementation. In the meantime all the work being done with fast twist HV has made me interested in seeing what I can do in a Brit and I need something for some of them to do.

Is there a bench rest cast boolit discipline?

theres not not just a whole nuther world out there, a whole nuther GALAXY,,,,,,

http://castbulletassoc.org/forum/

There is a whole lot of truth being spoken in this thread. One thing I would caution those who have less than five years on this forum. Before assigning blame, spend a couple of months reading all the way back to the beginning of the forum to more fully understand what the present situation actually us, rather than what you think it is.

The TRULY horrifying aspect to all of this is the present and former members of this forum who have already done the work, have the knowledge, and will not post because of what this has all become.

Something to ponder on.

Las I have said before, scrubbing and disappearing threads in an effort to present an absence of discord does nothing but foment an atmosphere of distrust and a belief that true factual discourse is not possible.

[Hannibal]

Thank you VERY much for that link. Now, if you good people will excuse me, I'm off to try and learn something.

[frnkeore]

Thank you VERY much for that link. Now, if you good people will excuse me, I'm off to try and learn something.

Also, click on "Home" (upper left corner) then click "Match Results" and you'll get all kinds of loading info for many 30 cals.

Frank

[45 2.1]

The TRULY horrifying aspect to all of this is the present and former members of this forum who have already done the work, have the knowledge, and will not post because of what this has all become.

Now ain't that just the truth.......................

[pmer]

Interesting that you have actually seen these things happening, 44man. I have only seen a 22lr bullet arcing away and the shiny streak of a bullet/boolit as it reflects sunlight on its way to the target. The 22 bullets travelled in a simple arc and the reflected streak was way too quick to see the path. The 22 bullets were with a naked eye. Oh, I have seen air rifle pellets wobble their way to the target (and actually hit), fired from a smooth bore.

Then we've been shown a photo of a boolit that had elongated into a corkscrew shape! It hit the paper sideways.

We called them vapor trails. The shooter usually doesn’t see them through their scope but a spotter just over the shooter's shoulder can see it in their optics. It helps to be at longer ranges but you can see the arch of the bullet path from shots of 600 yds and more with out too much trouble.

Some factory slow twist shooters would be lever actions like .32 Win. Spl and 35 Rem. Not too hard to get a 32 WS shooting at jacketed velocities with hunting alloys.

[MBTcustom]

I've been on both sides of this. I spent a long time pursuing fast twist (I wish I had been taking it as seriously as I do now. Geez I didn't know how much free floating time I had back then!)
I also have given slow twist a good run for it's money
For the record, I made some Cu alloy, but never really had time to shoot it. (future project)
And I learned to paper patch when I first joined the forum.
I've come a long way since then. I feel like I was still getting over my dorky 20's when I started here, and now I'm a middle aged business owner. That's a little livin right there. Now, I know I have not been here as long as the arguments, but I have been here long enough to figure out that we are all after the same thing. (No, seriously. We are all doing the exact same thing even on a microscopic level.)
You have a hard surface doing damage to a soft surface.
You can either:
Change the angle of the hard surface so that it does less damage to the soft surface.
Or you can modify the soft surface so that the hard surface does less damage to it.
That's so simple a kindergardner could understand it.

That's not what people are fighting about. In fact, it's not a fight at all, it's a feud in the most classic sense of the word, and if it weren't this issue it would be something else.
Some people need to fight to be alive, and considering the number of warriors we have on this forum, I guess I'm not surprised. In fact, most of the people on both sides of this feud used their considerable talents to make enemies of the United States sorry they were ever born, and they don't want some punk who doesn't even know how to throw a decent salute telling them what they can or cannot do with their rifle, and they sure as hell better not tell your friends what is or is not possible.
Others may mot have been in the armed forces, but you know what loyalty is, and how to back your brother's play. I get it.

But if you back up and look at it, why are you doing what you are doing? Are you doing this to win some sort of online battle? If that's the case, I do challenge you to go back in the archives to about 2005 and do that on all the gun boards and you will see this issue being duked out left and right. Most of the gunboards put a stop to it, because they really don't give a rats hind end about cast bullets or the crazy people who want to push them fast, and we have a bad reputation online because of it. This forum alone puts up with HV cast bullet discussions because it's WHY WE ARE HERE.
Unfortunately, it's reached a stalemate. There is no more science or real testing being done for the sake of education. Every shot fired is observed carefully by both sides to see if it can be used as ammunition against the people on the other side of town.
It's the Hatfield's and McCoy's around here anytime we get into these issues. I'm particularly hated because I started on one side of town and decided to go see what the food tastes like on the other side of town. Yeah, I've taken a few pot shots myself, but that wasn't because of what you did to somebody else, it was because of what you did to me personally, and you had it coming (if you think real hard about the circumstances that lead up to it, I'm sure youll smile and say "yeah, I sure did" LOL!).

Look fellers, I'm not here to help with the feud. I never was. I was never in any "camp" and I never will be. I'm sharp as a razor on a few things and dumb as rock salt on others, but I walk my own path. I just do what works and let the rough edge drag, and most of the forum members are just like me. This constant feuding doesn't help anybody, and makes you look like a fool if you engage in it!

Yes, I'll use slow twist barrels when it suits my pleasure. Here's a twist rate calculator from Berger bullets. Punch your cast bullet in there at the speed you desire and tell me what Berger says is ideal for cast lead bullets. http://www.bergerbullets.com/twist-rate-calculator/
I'm shooting the NOE XCB bullet. It's .980 long, weighs 165 grains, and has a BC (roughly) of .287 and I want to shoot it at 2700 FPS. Some of the most accurate rifles I have created had a twist that puts the bullet right on the edge of 1.5 SG stability factor. Berger says 17 twist is optimum for my bullet and my system. Anything faster is drastically over spinning the bullet (sort of like shooting a 300RUM in a 1-8 twist barrel).

That said, a slow twist barrel does nothing for you if you load janky ammo. If you can't get the bullet into the barrel straight, you'll never have excellent accuracy no matter what twist you have on your rifle, and the fast twist crowd says "yeah, and why not use a fast twist barrel as a school master to get excellent accuracy with and learn how to do it with a standard twist?!?!" and I can't argue with that. Excellent idea. However, I don't think, nor have I seen any evidence to support the idea, that you're going to get superb accuracy when you're over spinning the bullet (I'm not talking about 2200 FPS out of a ten twist. I'm more talking about 2700ish and I'm not talking about a 1" group that turns into a 1.25" group. I'm talking about 1" that turns into 12" OK?). If you do, any minuscule error you might make in any casting session will blow your groups, and the accuracy may not be there when you need it.

At that point, you may very well decide to go with a slower twist barrel that allows you to utilize perfect ammunition to the distance you require.
That's where I'm at in this. Looking at the ballistic calculator, I see that all that is required for stability is 1-17 twist as long as I stay above 2500 FPS. Thing is, I don't care to stay above 2500 all the time. Sometimes I may want to shoot slower. So I went with a 1-14 twist. That gives me a SG of 2.29 @ 2700 FPS (still pretty high but not ridiculous), and I want to learn to shoot that twist as blazing fast as I can go in the 30XCB cartridge.

Problem is, I'm tired of standing in the middle and getting shot at because I'm using a barrel I got from a Hatfield, and a cartridge I got from a McCoy!
Am I the only person on this forum who wants to know what happens if you just DO what you know works? (IE: use a meduim twist barrel and listen to what is being done by the HV with standard twist fellers).
Most of you fellers are holding tools and rifles that I made for you, and all I asked for in return was peace. Is that too much to ask?

[btroj]

The problem isn't the shooting. The problem is theory.

I showed specific examples that sorta put holes in the rpm theory. I have a few others prepared if you would like.

What it comes down to is pretty simple. Some hold a theory quite dear and refuse to accept any counter arguement. Even in the face of facts that refuse to beleive the theory is incorrect at best.

While a slow twist MAY make it easier it IS NOT a requirement. That simple statement shows that the rpm theory is dead and needs to be buried.

Yes, you built my rifle. I truly appreciate that. It shoots quite well. I plan to get it to shoot even better by learning what it wants. That said, I do not feel obligated by your generosity to believe in that which is false.

We do not, and never have, disagreed on the idea that the proof is in the pudding. Results matter. Go shoot and see what happens. Where we do disagree is the idea that twist rate is determining factor in HV accuracy with cast bullets. That is the SINGLE area of contention.

I have tried dunking a basketball. Never could. I was happy to touch the rim on occasion. The mere fact I couldn't do it did not tell me it wasn't possible. It merely told me I wasn't good enough. I didn't have the tools to do the job. That is the core issue.

The fact that you, and others, have not managed to get the desired results in a faster twist does not mean th twist was to fault, it simply means you didn't spend the time to find the right combinations. I managed to get somewhat decent groups at speeds that blow away the rpm theory. Even in the face of those results I am told the theory stands? How can that be? I can't ignore the results on targets. I must make a judgement based on the information before me. That judgement tells me that the theory doesn't hold water. As a scientific minded man I can't hold a theory dear when there is obvious evidence that it isn't a valid hypothesis.

We can discuss shooting all day long and have no real troubles. Bring in disproven theory and it will get bad, and fast.

[btroj]

Pages 270 to 272 of "Black Magic, The Ultra Accurate AR-15" by John Feamster third printing.
Accuracy test 5: fast twist vs slow twist barrels.
Using Hornady 40 gr V-max bullets he compares groups fired from a 1-14 and 1-8 barrels. He reduced the charge slightly to improve accuracy from the 1-14 barrel and got an agg from 6-five shot groups at 100 yards of .626 inches at an average velocity of 3747. Switching to the 1-8 barrel he fired at an average velocity of 3805 fps and an agg for 6 five shot groups of .549 inches.
His conclusion- so much for the supposed, horribly detrimental effect of "over stabilizing" the lightweight bullets.

The slower twist barrel was still over 192,000 rpm but the faster twist was at 342,000!

When I see results like this I can only draw one conclusion, rpm has a very minimal affect on bullets as long as they are adequately stabilized. Overstabilization may be a neat theoretical discussion topic but in the real world it just doesn't have a measurable affect on accuracy.

Now can we get back to shooting and leave the theory behind?

[btroj]

"Your bullet is stable and you can expect good groups"

Where does it tell me I am over stabilized and accuracy will suffer?

[btroj]

These far I have used an alloy I think is 50 pounds range scrap with 5 pounds monotype added. I say think as I have been using bullets I cast last fall and like a fool I didn't label them.
I had a bunch of other bullets cast from plain old range scrap I am aging right now. I plan to see how BHn changes affects the accuracy with that alloy. I have a PID controller on order so I can try a range of heat treat temps and get repeatable results. This was based on the testing Rick did with his revolver years ago that showed that above a certain BHn accuracy was accually reduced.

Other than trying this in my rifle with my mould and load setup I know of no way to really know what to expect. I can look at what others use and get ideas on what might work well in my rifle but in the end I need to see what my rifle likes best.

I have other things I want to look into in a similar manner but will keep them mum for now.

This rilfe was intended, at least by me, to be a test bed. I want to see what changes with alloy. What lubes work well? I really want a good, known load for lube testing. A rifle that doesn't throw flyers lets me really know when the lube is to blame.

[sbowers]

The rifling twist/bullet/powder charge is all one equation, and when the limits of that particular combination is reached then there will be a deration of the accuracy. To get more accuracy one of the parts of the equation must be changed. That being either barrel twist/ bullet or powder charge. Shooting one group one time at one yardage does not set a president, you must able to get that same result time and again at multiple yardages before it can be called a successful . If you can not do this then your test mean little or nothing more than you able to get one good group one time. Now this is an ongoing experiment and changes in every part of the equation are a must if the desired results are to be achieved. Arguing that one part of the equation has no relevance to the others is not conducive to getting the point that is being sought.
Steve

[44man]

Good for you fellas.
It all comes around to Greenhill and the thousands of gun rag figures and formulas, all wrong!
Then someone says you need to add this, divide by this or subtract this number. What have they done? They changed the formula to fit what they do. I have pages and pages of this junk and none ever fit what I shot.
The relationship between velocity, spin and your boolit will govern what you do so you must do the work. I refuse to make a twist recommendation because I might shoot 2000 fps and you want to shoot 1000 fps. You shoot 50 yards and another wants 1000 yards.
Maybe the worst question ever to ask is "what twist should I use?"

[btroj]

The rifling twist/bullet/powder charge is all one equation, and when the limits of that particular combination is reached then there will be a deration of the accuracy. To get more accuracy one of the parts of the equation must be changed. That being either barrel twist/ bullet or powder charge. Shooting one group one time at one yardage does not set a president, you must able to get that same result time and again at multiple yardages before it can be called a successful . If you can not do this then your test mean little or nothing more than you able to get one good group one time. Now this is an ongoing experiment and changes in every part of the equation are a must if the desired results are to be achieved. Arguing that one part of the equation has no relevance to the others is not conducive to getting the point that is being sought.
Steve

Ah, but what am I to do with a rifle that has a barrel of a specific twist? I can change many things but the barrel is what it is. I want to focus on getting the most from that one rifle and that means different alloys, powders, and possibly bullets. What I won't change is the barrel.

As for multiple yardafes being required for success, says who? If I want a dedicated 100 yard rifle then why do I care what it does at longer ranges? In this case we all need to form our own definition of success.

[glockky]

I see 45 2.1 is showing banned now. Thats great another wealth of information and excellent bullet designer who did an outstanding job with group buys is now banned. This banning seems to be pretty common anymore.

Several people from this forum who helped me very much starting out are now banned. Guess its time to find a new forum this is getting ridiculous.

[sbowers]

Then obviously you are not willing to make the changes to that will lead the experiment to its obvious goal, which to my knowledge is maxium velocity/ and accuracy from a cast bullets.
Steve