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Thread: Expansion Industries

  1. #41
    Boolit Master




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    what are theses loads light are heavy loads(target are hunting)?

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgr View Post
    what are theses loads light are heavy loads(target are hunting)?
    I think you are asking if these are light OR heavy loads?

    He, as I, when playing with newly acquired unknown powders with "sketchy" (not full pressure data) load data, start out low and work up. From what I have read, this powder acts and loads very similar to others such as TiteGroup. But you can do the comparison for yourself by looking at the EI load data sheets and the published data for other powders in all the standard books. EI should know their own powder and I will trust their charts for starters.

    What are you hunting? Light loads for small stuff.....full loads for big stuff?

    But I as others on this thread will not really know until we actually get the shipments and play around with loads. Will post some info once I have it loaded up.

    banger-j

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by wgr View Post
    what are theses loads light are heavy loads(target are hunting)?
    Yes, as bangerjim stated, since this is a new powder with minimal load data, I started out light, using EI's published data to become familiar with their powder.

    As loaded, the 38 SPC loads I used were intended for target/familiarity. If need be I could use them for small game (squrriel/rabbit) out to 25 yards or so. But would not want to use them as a hunting or self defense load.

    Cross referencing one or more loading manuals to the manufacturers recommended load lists can give you an indication of how it will compare to other powders. I happened to luck out and found the 2013 Hodgdon annual update was grain for grain with numerous Universal loads. That is not a guarantee that it will load and perform as Universal, but gives me a reference for other loads that EI does not list, such as 45c loads.

    Whenever I am working with a powder new to me, I always start light and work up, looking for signs of pressure. I normally chrono all first time uses as well, this time I was not able to do so.

  4. #44
    Boolit Master



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    Quote Originally Posted by wgr View Post
    what are theses loads light are heavy loads(target are hunting)?
    Not sure who you were asking but I would have to say for myself, it should be self evident. Loads will be for my personal pleasure and enjoyment.

    Ken
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  5. #45
    Boolit Master



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    Just checked ETR7 website, it now shows the powder to be "Out of Stock"

    I am a little concerned. Placed and order for 6 - 4 pound containers (24 pounds total) on the 3-3-15, @ 8:39 AM EST, they withdrew the money from my CC account on the 4th (transaction completed) and as of today no shipment, or tracking number have been received. Powder was listed as, In Stock, when I ordered. I have made 4 phone calls and left 3 messages, EI, has not returned any calls. We are in the same time zone.

    I did get a returned email from one, Lucus Smissen, 3 days ago stating that I would receive tracking info "very soon".

    Looks like my personal pleasure and enjoyment working up loads, is not going to happen "very soon".

    Ken
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  6. #46
    Boolit Grand Master
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    "tonite, tonite......it's commin' tonite! (from A Christmas Story)

    Got the FEDEX number on my shipment and I will have the powder next week. Only took the 3 days to ship.

    banger-j

  7. #47
    Boolit Buddy abqcaster's Avatar
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    I used it to load up some 9mm with Lee 356-125 2R, and I still got binding/bridging in my Lee Autodisk dispenser (charge bar), with 3.8gr charges. It works really well in my Perfect Powder measure though. I guess that's the route I'll be taking from now on with this powder, as I bought it almost exclusively for .380 and 9mm. If anybody has any tips to prevent binding, I'm all ears.
    Krav Maga Instructor
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  8. #48
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance
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    Just checked ETR7 website, it now shows the powder to be "Out of Stock"
    Just got off the phone - talked with their retail store ... the powder was put 'Out of Stock' because they are in the middle of inventory. Per the lady ... will be "Put back Up" in a few days

    I called because am planning on a trip to the NRA Museum last week of April and want to purchase the powder at their store ... told " Not to Worry the powder will be in stock"
    Regards
    John

  9. #49
    Boolit Grand Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Boy View Post
    Just got off the phone - talked with their retail store ... the powder was put 'Out of Stock' because they are in the middle of inventory. Per the lady ... will be "Put back Up" in a few days

    I called because am planning on a trip to the NRA Museum last week of April and want to purchase the powder at their store ... told " Not to Worry the powder will be in stock"
    GOOD!

    According to thier site, this is the samenpowder they use for ALL thier commercial ammo and I would think they would have it. Pleanty of it!

    banger-j

  10. #50
    Boolit Master



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    I am glad many of you have received powder from Expansion industries. I can not even get an email response now or a return phone call.

    I believe it to be very poor business practices to take someones money 9 days ago and not ship a product. Not to mention not returning phone calls. I have left 4 messages now, the last was after reading post #48 I called at 4:15 PM EST. and left another message.

    I will defiantly be calling my Credit card company no later than Monday morning to file a complaint and work to getting my money back. I would have to say at this time buyer beware. Expansion Industries state on the ETR7 webpage orders shipped in 1 to 2 business days. But they fail to define what they consider a business day.



    Ken
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    Remember Lavoy!
    I'll cling to my God and my guns, and you can keep the "Change".

  11. #51
    Boolit Buddy
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    Been in your shoes and not that it really matters to you at this time but I received shipping info the next day and would have received the powder 1 week after order except for global warming shutting down the country for a week. Hang in there hope it works out for you.

  12. #52
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    Had a bit of a wait for mine but it arrived safely. Loaded some 9mm and tested them out. Metered nicely in the Dillon. Charged the 120 TC with the same load that I use for Bullseye. Performance and report were pretty close to the Bullseye loads. Loaded some 40 S&W's but haven't tried them out yet.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Screwbolts View Post
    I am glad many of you have received powder from Expansion industries. I can not even get an email response now or a return phone call.

    I believe it to be very poor business practices to take someones money 9 days ago and not ship a product. Not to mention not returning phone calls. I have left 4 messages now, the last was after reading post #48 I called at 4:15 PM EST. and left another message.

    I will defiantly be calling my Credit card company no later than Monday morning to file a complaint and work to getting my money back. I would have to say at this time buyer beware. Expansion Industries state on the ETR7 webpage orders shipped in 1 to 2 business days. But they fail to define what they consider a business day.



    Ken
    Good luck with that. What they state is "usually ships in 2-3 days" which is hardly a guarantee. Second, they state that all sales are final. Third, your CC company probably won't take immediate action, and by the time you get paperwork and send it back, you'll have the powder you ordered. My limited experience with CC complaints is that the process favors the vendor, not the cardholder. You wanted the powder, hold out for it.
    Most people would sooner die than think, in fact, they do so. -B. Russell

  14. #54
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    Geraldo: Thank you for the kind words. are you a rep for E. I. ?

    Copied and pasted directly from their ETR7 page: "Availability:: Usually Ships in 1 to 2 Business Days"

    Without shipping and delivery, no sale has occured, only thievery! They weren't bashful in taking my $450.25 10 days ago.

    Ken
    ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
    Je suis Charlie
    Remember Lavoy!
    I'll cling to my God and my guns, and you can keep the "Change".

  15. #55
    Boolit Master

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    Nope, just a satisfied customer.
    Most people would sooner die than think, in fact, they do so. -B. Russell

  16. #56
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    Made it out to the range here today. The weather was anice 49 degrees with a southernly wind ranging from 15-20 mph. That would beleft to right across the range. I had loaded up the ETR-7 powder in the 38 SPCand 45 Colt to run over my chrony.

    While researching this powder I compared the load lists provided on the Expansion Industries (EI) website to the load data in several of my loading manuals. I compared the caliber, bullet weight, bullet type, and min/maxloads of the EI data. In the Hodgdon's 2013 Annual Manual Reloading(magazine) I found 14 loads using Universal that matched caliber, bulletweight, bullet type and min/max loads for ETR-7 from EI. I loaded the 38SPC using the recommended min/max from EI. Then I used the Hodgdon's 2013list for Universal as a guide for the 45 colt rounds, since EI offered no loadsfor this caliber.

    The loads were:

    In the 38 SPC: 158gr LSWC with 3.0, 3.2, and 3.4gr of ETR-7 as well as 158grLSWC with 4.4gr of unique.
    In the 45c: 247gr LSWC with 6.5gr, 7.0, 7.5 (w/JFP), 8.0gr, 8.2gr, and 8.4grall with the ETR-7.

    The weapons were:
    Ruger Blackhawk with 6" barrel
    Ruger Super Blackhawk with 4 5/8" barrel. (This gun has been tuned andcylinders/cone worked by Hamilton Bowen)

    38 Results with ETR-7, the 3.0-3.4 gr 38 SPC loads with ETR-7 turned out to be"gallery/plinking" class loads.

    3.0gr ETR-7 w 158gr LSWC Hi: 141.8/ Lo: 91.32/ AV 121/ ES 50.4
    3.2gr ETR-7 w 158gr LSWC Hi: 183.9/ Lo: 143.3/ AV 163.6/ ES 40.6
    3.4gr ETR-7 w 158gr LSWC Hi: 212.6/ Lo: 169.9/ AV 196.5/ ES 42.7

    4.4gr Unquie w 158gr LSWC Hi: 339/ Lo: 200.7/ AV 250.8/ ES 139.7 (16 shotstotal with 3 unusually low)
    Not counting the 3 low rounds the 13 shot average changed to- Hi: 339/ Lo:239.8/ AV 261.7/ ES 100. These rounds may have been caused when I was adjustingmy crimp. Could have been too light of crimp.

    All the above 38 SPC rounds were very mild with no to minimum recoil, noflattening of primers, or excessive fouling. Most cases were free of fowlingand fell easily from the cylinder.

    45 Colt rounds: 247gr LSWC with 6.5gr, 7.0, 7.5 (w/JFP), 8.0gr, 8.2gr, and8.4gr all with the ETR-7. The bullets were bought at a gun show as dropped froma 250gr LSWC mold, yet weighed an average of 247gr after lubing.

    The Hodgdon 2013 Annual manual lists between 6.5 and 7.8 gr for a standard(not-ruger only load) for a 250gr cast LRNFP. Speed and pressure should be742/9,200 cup and 941/ 13,000 cup, respectively. The same manual lists a 300grJFP with min/max of 6.6 and 7.3 to range between 593/11,200 cup and 700/13,700cup, respectively.

    The reports I was able to find online stated that ETR-7 was performing about10% less than Universal load data. With that in mind, I worked the loads upfrom the bottom of the recommended Universal 45c loads, and increasing grainincrements until I reached 8.4gr.

    For instance the Hodgdon 2013 load recommended a max of 7.8gr of universal. 7.8x .10= .78, 7.8+.78= 8.58 max of ETR-7 to reach the estimated 941 fps load.

    6.5 gr ETR-7 w 247gr LSWC Hi: 233.2/ Lo: 175.4/ AV 205.4/ ES 57.8
    7.0 gr ETR-7 w 247gr LSWC Hi: 963/ Lo: 950.2/ AV 956.3/ES 12.8
    7.5gr ETR-7 w 300gr JFP Hi: 208.3/ Lo: 186.7/AV 193/ ES 21.6 This load was overthe Hodgdon 2013 load by .2 gr and greatly underperformed to my expected velocities.
    8.0gr ETR-7 w 247gr LSWC Hi: 965/ Lo: 945.2/ AV 957.5/ ES 19.8
    8.2gr ETR-7 w 247gr LSWC Hi: 951.2/ Lo: 946.2/ AV 947/ ES 5 Very odd string!Consistent, yet lower velocities than the 8.0 and 8.4 gr loads.
    8.4gr ETR-7 w 247gr LSWC Hi: 962.9/ Lo: 950.8/ AV 958.8/ ES 12.1

    None of the 45c loads had flattened primers, all primers still had roundededges. Mild to moderate powder fowling on the cases. These cases were muchcleaner than my Titegroup loads. All cases easily came out of the cylinder,although none dropped out on their own, I normally have to push them out withthe cartridge extractor then pull them the rest of the way by hand. Which isnormal for all my 45 rounds both hand loaded and factory.

    While this test was limited in depth of weapons andvolume of rounds, the end results of today's test:


    1. Left me confident in the 8.0 to 8.4 gr weight behind a 250 class cast boolitin the mid 900 fps range. I will work with these gr weights more to furtherdefine the results.

    2. I feel the EI recommended load of 3.0-3.4 gr is too light to maximize thepotential of the 158gr LSWC, I will try the hodgdon 2013 data usingUniversal from 3.5gr to 4.5gr next in the 38 SPC I believe this will performmuch better.

    3. Increasing beyond the Hodgdon's Universal load data up to 10% showedsome truth to the reports I found online about the ETR-7's performance. Theuniversal 7.8gr should have a velocity of 941, with the ETR-7 I reached thatrange using between 8.0 - 8.4 gr.(actually less than 10% increase)

    4. The JFP rounds need further developing, the hodgdon manual has a max ofUniversal of 7.3gr. The ETR-7 using 7.5 gr only pushed the bullet a max of208fps. Something was not right here. Some one help me here, heavier bullets +copper jacket should require more powder than a lighter cast bullet,right? Shouldn't I expect to be able to push this bullet using the same 8.0-8.4gr with less velocity and somewhat more pressure than the before mentioned247gr LSWC?

    Disclaimer- I am not associated with EI nor a am I a paid spokesman, just a satisfied customer who is happy to have some "new" pistol powder to test. Nor do I recommend my load data for the use of others, I am simply sharing my results. Use with caution at your own risk and discretion, your results may vary.

    For those waiting their shipments, global warming and the mail always suck. I hope you get your powder soon.

    Ralph



  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geraldo View Post
    My limited experience with CC complaints is that the process favors the vendor, not the cardholder.
    You have a poor credit card company and I would drop them immediately. Mine have issued a refund immediately and then the review happened. They have always ruled in my favor. In this case if the CC company issued a refund you'd be on the hook after the review. As soon as the CC company finds that you received the product, which is non refundable, you will be charged for it.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geraldo View Post
    Good luck with that. What they state is "usually ships in 2-3 days" which is hardly a guarantee. Second, they state that all sales are final. Third, your CC company probably won't take immediate action, and by the time you get paperwork and send it back, you'll have the powder you ordered. My limited experience with CC complaints is that the process favors the vendor, not the cardholder. You wanted the powder, hold out for it.


    The CC company is on YOUR side.....that is if you are a long-time good customer. I have had many "disputed" amounts on my several cards and each and every on (totalling well over $3k) have ALAWAYS settled in my favor with the funds in my account in a short time. A couple vendors raised a stink, but the CC came to my defense and vendors shut up.

    Get a good card and keep your balance in check with ZERO balance carried forward...no interest $$. I have never paid one dime of interest in over 35 years on three cards.

    banger-j

  19. #59
    Boolit Master

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    Thanks for the review of my credit. I have no balances and pay no interest. Yes, the card (Cabelas) took the amount off my bill immediately, then reinstated it when the vendor said "no refund policy" in their response. After an appeal I still ended up paying it. The process took at least two months. When I argued with the local company prior to the dispute, the guy told me exactly how it would play out and he was absolutely right. This lead me to believe that the CC is not on your side, and that if the vendor fights they will win.

    My point to Screwbolts is that he'll have the powder before he'll have resolution in the dispute process.

    Back on the topic, thanks Rhou45 for the data and review.
    Last edited by Geraldo; 03-15-2015 at 10:26 AM.
    Most people would sooner die than think, in fact, they do so. -B. Russell

  20. #60
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    Rhou45, I have been trying the ETR 7 in the 38 special and 44 Special and 45 Colt, unfortunately I do not have a chrono. I got up to 4.5 gr with the Lee 105 gr SWC and also with the Lee 125 gr RNFP and the Lee 158 gr SWC. In the Colt 45 I stopped at 7.5 gr not for pressure but because I was shooting a Contender with a paper thin octogon bbl and it got uncomfortable. Thanks for your great efforts, keep the data comming Tim

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check