Loading .303 with Black Powder. Will it Work?

[longbow]

My understanding is that the original .303 loads used a cupro nickel jacket and that would probably scrape fouling out with each shot. It is unlikely any military would issue weapons that fouled so badly they would be inaccurate or worse difficult/impossible to chamber rounds in after just a few shots so they must had had a system that worked.

Having said that, if you use a gas checked boolit of appropriate size with a grease cookie or wad under it you may get a few rounds through the gun before fouling becomes too bad.

A pull through with a wet patch on it might work for wiping the bore every few shots... just drop through the chamber then pull the wet patch through from the muzzle.

Regardless of how well it works (or not), you will probably have fun and learn some things. I know I'd try it.

Longbow

[pdgh59]

The bp .303 cartridge can not be duplicated by the handloader. Before the case was formed a compressed pellet of bp was inserted into what resembled a brass .410 cartridge that was then formed into the final shape. A duplex load could go someway to obtaining the correct velocity but this is not allowed under your match rules.

[loadedbutbroke]

Written in haste

I am having a problem with seating the bullet in full length re-sized cases. The neck is crushing the driving bands and shaving off lead.

Diameter of boolit .314 neck .306 (Copper spritzer .3105 which I normally use). Should I

1. Re-size the boolit in a Lee re-sizer without Liquid Alox?

or

2. Invest in a neck expanded die from Lyman

(From reloading 45-70 In understand it is better not to size the boolit)


Second problem is compressing the powder. I can only seem to get about 45grn os Swiss #4 in the case. Track of the wolf don't seem to do a compression die for .303. Perhaps I could try a piece of rod in my 45/70 compression die???

Help
Adrian

[loadedbutbroke]

While the early .303 ammunition was loaded with black, you will need a bullet which carries enough soft lubricant to keep the fouling soft, otherwise, even with the best Swiss powder, accuracy will degrade rapidly with fouling unless the bore is wiped between shots. In my .303s I have had best results with the CBE bullets in .316" diameter. Unless you Beegle your Lee mold it will probably not cast a bullet large enough. NOE also makes a copy of the Ideal 299 bullet in .316" diameter which should work well. The best thing would be to cast your chamber and measure the diameter of the unrifled section ahead of the case mouth, before the rifling starts, and you want a bullet which fits the ball seat at the origin of rifling exactly.

To determine the correct bullet diameter for a rifle, the groove diameter of the barrel is NOT the determinant. If you forget EVERYTHING you ever read about slugging barrels and trying to measure barrel groove diameters simply cast chambers from now on, and make bullets fit the ball seat, you will be far happier in the long run.

The factor which limits bullet diameter is neck clearance. Measure the neck diameter of the chamber on the cast, and ensure that the diameter of a loaded cartridge is 0.0015" SMALLER than the chamber cast at that point, to ensure safe expansion for bullet release. Most .303 chambers are generously toleranced, so this is seldom an issue.

Attachment 129399

I have run into more problems and decided to give up on this attempt for now. The above post probably puts its finger on the main issue.

Basically I got hold of a Lyman neck expanding die which solved the problem of the over tight neck. I made up a type of compression die and loaded up a test round with 55grn of Swiss 4, lightly compressed, a small card patch and then seated the lubed bullet. I thought I had cracked it, but the round was too tight to chamber easily.

I have a feeling that the chamber on this rifle is actually tighter or a slightly different profile to my other .303 rifles and even though the brass has been very carefully fully re -sized and was checked in the chamber first, once the bullet is seated it is just too tight to fit. I tried with a 170grn sritzer and there was no problem.

I can only suppose that the black powder/bullet combination are causing the case to expand slightly and hence the problem? Tried without the powder, the round will load OK


The spritzer chambers perfectly th 185 grn lee does not once the powder is added.

So back to the drawing board.

Adrian

[Dan Cash]

I agree that you are likely swelling the case during powder compression. Try compressing in stages, i.e. drop 1/2 the charge and compress then drop other half and compress. Might get you bhrough.

[Keith Andersen]

I was not going to get into this thread. But I just cant believe some of the replies from guys that very obviously don't have a clue how to load or most likely ever shot a black powder cartridge rifle.
A black powder cartridge rifle modern or vintage is no harder to clean then a rifle shot with smokeless, most likely a lot easier.
Just what in the heck is a black powder pellet???
The only thing that might give you a little problem is cleaning your bottle necked brass if your not set up for it like the small ceramic media in a tumbler. Water and a small brush will do the job but not as good as a tumbler and ceramic media.
The next thing especially if you want to shoot "dirty" with out using a blow tube to soften the fouling. That RN bullet your using in your photo might give you a little problem. That bullet has a very long bore riding section. If it is tight to your bore you will almost have to use the blow tube because of the fouling control. If that bore riding portion is undersized by about two thousands or a slight bit more you will be able to load and shoot with out a problem and you will still hold fair accuracy because that nose will expand to fill the bore.
Shoot that fine rifle and enjoy the match.
Heck I shoot my 1911 and several lever rifles using black and in the 40 some odd years the black powder never ruined a single shooter I have or had.

[Keith Andersen]

I forgot.

The reason your having a problem chambering the loaded round.

If your seating that bullet and compressing the powder with it doing this your most likely increasing the bore riding nose. Look at the bullet you cant get seated to see if you have land cuts on the bore riding section.
Lee moulds are not the best for holding tolerances. They are all over the place.

[longbow]

A bit of advice on neck sizing.

I was having some problems with my NOE 0.314" x 129 gr. boolits ~ poor accuracy at first. I had lapped the mould to drop 0.316" since my guns all run about 0.314" groove. I had notice some lead shaving even though I was chamfering and belling the case mouths, so I pulled some boolits and found the problem right away. The narrow driving bands were being significantly resized by the brass.

This had not been a problem with my NOE 316299 but they have more meat at the driving bands. So, I checked and found that my RCBS die was sizing the necks to about 0.310" which might be just fine for nominal jacketed bullet diameter of 0.311"/0.312" but a wee bit much for boolits of 0.315"/0.316". Also all that neck sizing and expanding is hard on brass.

So, I made a larger expander button to leave the necks at 0.313" inside and that solved the boolit resizing issue and accuracy problems but not the brass being overworked. So next I bought a Lee Collet sizer and set it up to size to 0.313". Worked like a charm! No more boolit resizing by the brass and no more excessive working of the necks.

I now get good accuracy and am being gentle on my brass as well.

So, as a minimum, you should get a larger expander button or better invest in a Lee Collet die (or one of the other adjustable neck sizing dies). That should solve the lead shaving issue... as long as you are belling case mouths as well.

Annealing the necks will help too. I regularly anneal mine.

Longbow

[loadedbutbroke]

Hi, I guess I owe you guys, who have taken the trouble to reply to this thread, an apology for giving up. I have simply run out of time and following the most recent posts from Dan Cash, Kieth Andresen and Longbow have come to the conclusion that I need to look a lot deeper into this problem; I don't think there is a quick fix.

To start with I am going to have to have a good look at this chamber

Outpost75
The factor which limits bullet diameter is neck clearance. Measure the neck diameter of the chamber on the cast, and ensure that the diameter of a loaded cartridge is 0.0015" SMALLER than the chamber cast at that point, to ensure safe expansion for bullet release. Most .303 chambers are generously toleranced, so this is seldom an issue.

I have in the past had a few stuck cases in this rifle unlike my other .303 bolt action rifles even though the cases were full length re sized and checked before loading. Maybe this chamber is unusually tight?

Then the bullet which I suspect is c--p

Keith Andersen
That bullet has a very long bore riding section. If it is tight to your bore you will almost have to use the blow tube because of the fouling control. If that bore riding portion is undersized by about two thousands or a slight bit more you will be able to load and shoot with out a problem and you will still hold fair accuracy because that nose will expand to fill the bore.

and

If your seating that bullet and compressing the powder with it doing this your most likely increasing the bore riding nose. Look at the bullet you cant get seated to see if you have land cuts on the bore riding section.
Lee moulds are not the best for holding tolerances. They are all over the place.

Then the seating of the bullet

Longbow

I had notice some lead shaving even though I was chamfering and belling the case mouths, so I pulled some boolits and found the problem right away. The narrow driving bands were being significantly resized by the brass.

This had not been a problem with my NOE 316299 but they have more meat at the driving bands. So, I checked and found that my RCBS die was sizing the necks to about 0.310" which might be just fine for nominal jacketed bullet diameter of 0.311"/0.312" but a wee bit much for boolits of 0.315"/0.316". Also all that neck sizing and expanding is hard on brass.

Then the reloading process. Because of the necked case compressing the powder is difficult. So as I found is getting a card disk or wad in which fills over the top of the powder.
Using a grease cookie appears to me anyway to be even more problematic.

Longbow
Having said that, if you use a gas checked boolit of appropriate size with a grease cookie or wad under it you may get a few rounds through the gun before fouling becomes too bad.

And of course the case expanding before fitting the bullet.

Dan Cash
I agree that you are likely swelling the case during powder compression. Try compressing in stages, i.e. drop 1/2 the charge and compress then drop other half and compress. Might get you bhrough.

I am sure there is so much more people have commented on which will effect the practicality of reloading the .303 with black powder and lead which also needs to be considered.

Finally a coulpe of additional thoughts from me.

The Martini action I have was originally designed for an enormous but short round which is reflected in the huge loading chute, lets call it, which leads to the chamber. This being a converted rifle uses the same chute but for a much smaller round which makes entry into the chamber more difficult in fact you have to squeeze the round in as the rim pushes the rising bolt (chute) down. A tapered FMJ round goes in relatively smoothly. But is the fatter lead topped round fouling too early to be practical?

I recon 55grns Swiss #4 might be the most which will go in the case slightly compressed. I only use 60grn in my 45-70 with a 535 grn boolit for 600yrds so is this not too much behind only 185grns of lead in my .303? (For this rifle I usualy use 38grn Vit 140 with 175grn FMJ)


Adrian

[Keith Andersen]

Adrian.

Here is a bullet you might look at if your groove is good enough for a .311 diameter bullet. http://www.buffaloarms.com/Lyman_Bul....aspx?CAT=4119 The shape of the ogive will allow you to load in a fouled throat a lot longer then a bore rider will. A lead bullet will slug up to a degree. It might do you some good if you get a cast or slug your throat to see what the ideal diameter would be.

[yulzari]

Some extra (probably useless) background. The .303 MLM black powder rounds had the pellet prepared in a bronze mould and filled with a moistened (by alcohol?) black powder paste and compressed. My opinion is that the rod forming the hole down the middle was retained until the case was formed and then pulled out but I have not found out how they actually did it. The Austro-Hungarians used a black powder pellet in the Mannlicher M1888 8x50R but this one was made as a rod then some powder was trickled in around it so it burned from the outside in. In reverse to the .303 MLM. Had the technology continued I expect that there would have been much research into different hole cross sections. Much as there is on solid fuel rockets. Incidentally, whilst Enfield claimed that Cordite eroded Metford barrels faster, the change to Enfield rifling coincided with the introduction of a cooler burning Cordite and target shooters continued to order Metford barrels and the Japanese had no problems with nitro powders in their Arisaka rifles with Metford rifling made over many years in the millions (and used by Britain in WW1). The pellet technology was the product of Colonel Rubin's research in Switzerland (but they went straight for smokeless powder) and Enfield bought some of Rubin's rifles and experimental ammunition as part of their search for a magazine rifle post Martini.

[seppos]

While the early .303 ammunition was loaded with black, you will need a bullet which carries enough soft lubricant to keep the fouling soft, otherwise, even with the best Swiss powder, accuracy will degrade rapidly with fouling unless the bore is wiped between shots. In my .303s I have had best results with the CBE bullets in .316" diameter. Unless you Beegle your Lee mold it will probably not cast a bullet large enough. NOE also makes a copy of the Ideal 299 bullet in .316" diameter which should work well. The best thing would be to cast your chamber and measure the diameter of the unrifled section ahead of the case mouth, before the rifling starts, and you want a bullet which fits the ball seat at the origin of rifling exactly.

To determine the correct bullet diameter for a rifle, the groove diameter of the barrel is NOT the determinant. If you forget EVERYTHING you ever read about slugging barrels and trying to measure barrel groove diameters simply cast chambers from now on, and make bullets fit the ball seat, you will be far happier in the long run.

The factor which limits bullet diameter is neck clearance. Measure the neck diameter of the chamber on the cast, and ensure that the diameter of a loaded cartridge is 0.0015" SMALLER than the chamber cast at that point, to ensure safe expansion for bullet release. Most .303 chambers are generously toleranced, so this is seldom an issue.

Attachment 129399

I agree.. beegle it up with aluminium tape.


S

[Multigunner]

"Incidentally, whilst Enfield claimed that Cordite eroded Metford barrels faster, the change to Enfield rifling coincided with the introduction of a cooler burning Cordite and target shooters continued to order Metford barrels and the Japanese had no problems with nitro powders in their Arisaka rifles with Metford rifling made over many years in the millions (and used by Britain in WW1). "

Mk1 Cordite most definitely did erode Metford rifling very quickly, this was proven in both the field and in rigorous testing.
Mk1 Cordite continued in use for some time after the development of the Enfield rifling and Cordite MD eroded more conventional rifling faster than it eroded Enfield rifling.

Single base powders are far less erosive than double base powders when neither are modified with coolants. Even then the higher molecular weight of the products of combustion make gases of double base powders more erosive at the same temperatures.
Also the burning of Cordite produces nitrious acid fumes.

The Japanese used Cordite propellants for Naval main guns, but I'm not sure what they used for rifle cartridges.