Patching 291's almost.

[OverMax]

I'm trying to do a little paper patching of a few .308 dia. raw cast 311291 Lyman's. When cutting those alternating angle edges on the paper to 30* degree's.
Can someone tell me the measured set back (cut) on the short side required to get that 30* degrees? thanks

BTW all I have is a old school house ruler to measure with. But it measures in Standard & MM if needed.

Oops: MY strips are measured: 1-1/2" W --2" L __So the 30* angle is needed & measured on the 1-1/2 side.

Thanks for the help

[wmitty]

think I see your question. Short answer is 22.0 MM. (1.5" = 25.4 x 1.5= 38.1 mm) tangent 30 degrees = .5774 = opposite / adjacent = opposite / 38.1 mm

38.1 mm x .5774 = 22 mm (actually 21.997 mm, but I doubt your ruler reads in .001 mm)

To figure the length of your side - 2 x PI x dia. = 2 x 3.1416 x .308" = 1.935" or 1 and 15/16" (49.15 mm)

I always wind up having to cut the patch a little longer it seems - I guess it shrinks and leaves a gap where the ends should meet.

good luck with your addiction.

[Nobade]

I have been cutting patches at 45 deg. for a long time now. Simply because it was easier to lay out a strip of masking tape on my paper cutter on which to make marks designating the length of various caliber patches. It makes things very easy, but I suppose someday I'll have to try them at 30 deg. and see if it works any better. To figure patch length, I just use core boolit diameter multiplied by Pi then by two, set my caliper at that distance, and make a mark on the masking tape. It works very well and is fast.

-Nobade

[Dan Cash]

I too have been cutting patches at 45 degrees as that was a simple setting on my saw when I knocked out a delrin patch cutting jig. Using the 45 degree cut with a patch wide enough for my .30 bullets made it very difficult to tell which way to roll them as I had a nearly perfect trapezoid. Since the angle of cut is not critical except that both ends of the patch be the same, that is parallel I set up my wheel type paper cutter by taping a piece of thin cardboard to the bed at an angle to the cutting slot. I don't know what angle it is, it is less than 45 degrees but greater than the angle of the rifling in the guns that will shoot the bullet. I was able to mark the cardboard that stuck out beyond the cutter so I knew how far to move the strip of patch material.

How long to make the patch is purely trial and error governed by the paper you are using and your patching technique; that is are you dry patching, what paper are you using, which direction is your patch cut relative to the paper grain, how much does the paper stretch wet or dry, etc. Don't complicate the process with tons of calculations, templates and so on. Roll your bullet in a strip of paper and mark it approximately at 2 wraps. Put the paper on your paper cutter and cut it, marking your cardboard guide. With the resulting patch, wrap your bullet and adjust the length accordingly so that you have no over lap of the patch ends but they leave the slightest gap.

[OverMax]

Two wraps with no overlap. {Easier said then done.} I don't know if my ends are exact matching after two full wrap's. But their close. Even so wouldn't the bullets final sizing crimp compress the dampened patch paper equally to all sides of the bullet?

[Dan Cash]

If the ends don't quite meet, not to worry, all will be well. Don't size after patching; it will distort the bullet. Make your bullet core .303-.304 for a cal .30 cartridge. Two wraps with .002 paper will yeild .310-.311 finished bullet. Lube, load and fire.

The witness mark on the strip of cardboard you taped to your paper cutter will let you lengthen or shorten your patch as needed. As I said, a bit of trial and error here. Cut a patch, roll a bullet and look at the result. Try again until it suits you then mark the cardboard strip with a final witness mark and you are ready to go.

[OverMax]

I guess I have to get-a-hold of Buckshot and ask him if he'd be willing to lathe me .303 die. Smallest 30cal (dry) lube-die I have is .308. Bullets when sized to that .308 measurement when wrapped twice are far larger than .311 measurement my barrel likes. {As said: a wrapped bullet is not to be resized after its drying.} That sir totally surprised me. Because I have been doing just that i.e. resizing them down to .311.
Honestly this paper patching deal ain't all that easy to accomplish. But I'm still determined yet to get it right..

Wife went looking thru my old job papers: She happen to find some old green line printer paper. Dozen sheets I think all connected yet. So its been a productive day in paper patching needs after all.

[Anonym]

OverMax,

I just purchased a 0.302 sizing die from Buckshot to size my 311291 as well as a 302 paper patching boolit. Turns out that mine sizes to right at 0.3025, and I've started using a paper that yields 0.311 after wrapping. I then run it through a 0.309 sizer, which gives me a 0.310 finished product after "spring back" without resizing the core boolit. I'm still new at this, but this seems to be giving me the best results so far.

I've been playing around with seating depth to maximize case volume for my powder. I'm trying to get the case volume to get as close to the max charge for any particular powder I shoot, so I don't want to seat too deep if I need more powder to get closer to that maximum. So what that means is that I then have to play around with how far up the boolit my patch can go. I tried wrapping over the ogive, but in my particular rifle, I had to seat so deep to not mash the patched boolit into the rifling but still fill the chamber, that I lost a lot of case volume to the point I was under the minimum charge.

It's quite a game, and there's a lot of science to it. I haven't worked it out yet, but it sure is a fun journey. Best of luck to you!

[OverMax]

Antonym: You and me both are new to P/Ping.
As I understand. The bullets paper wrapping just (barely) needs to enter the bores rifling when its bullet fully seat in its case prior to firing.. So upon the bullet firing its patching isn't torn away when its forced to enter its rifling. That means there is little to no free bore left. So I would have to reduce my powder charge by 15-20% because of increased pressure caused by that type of required patching necessity. I haven't gotten around to running a bullet up into my 94s rifling yet. But when I do I'll know instantly if that 291 bullet is appropriate to use according to the books OAL and just what is actual going on in my barrel. If the 291 bullet nearly pulls itself out of its case to get its patch's wrapping properly started. I'll go to a longer bullet like the 041. If the 291 is reasonable looking when seated and meet OAL yet its patching is where its suppose to be. I'm good to go. Than its just a matter of finding a rifle powder that fills the case. I won't use Dacron or cream of wheat as a filler unless I have too. Got quite a few different powders here to try first. IMR powers from 4831 down to 4198 and everything inbetween including A-2400 to try. I don't know about you Antonym. But this paper patching isn't all that easy to figure out. But once done correctly its a done deal there after it appears.

[Anonym]

Yes, I'm in the same process as you. I do keep my powder charges in check and test for signs of over pressure when loading and trying what powders I have that seem like they would be suitable, just haven't hit that sweet spot yet.

What I was running into paper patching is having any portion of the boolit enter into the bore once wrapped. Think about the nose of a bore rider coming in at 0.301 or so to "lightly engrave" on the rifling as it is seated so that the nose is supported when chambered. Any amount of paper on that portion in the nose would require quite a bit of force to push the nose into the bore, and what I was seeing was that the paper would roll back on me or would wedge so tightly into the bore that trying to take an unfired round from the chamber would pull the bullet (leaving it in the bore).

That being said, there is a portion of the bullet that sits between the mouth of the case and the bore of the barrel in the throat transition. What I've done is wrapped a few sample boolits at varying distances up the nose, then chambered the round with very little neck tension so that the chambering process seated the boolit to an optimum depth where the paper filled the throat. What I was finding was that there was a certain distance from the case mouth that required being filled by paper, regardless of how much nose was exposed and riding the bore. I'm getting a firm feeling when chambering so that the paper presses against the throat/rifling, but no more to stick the boolit or roll the paper, and no less so that the paper doesn't have a harsh transition and risk failure on firing.

What I'm doing now, with this measurement for paper in mind, is playing around with how much paper I need to protect the core for the ride without going too long, which requires deeper seating and a reduced case volume. I want the paper to protect the full length of the barrel without failure, but be able to maximize case volume to get every ounce of performance I can from the round. I figured if I wanted reduced loads, I'd just buy some gas checks and not deal with all this, right?

I do have a .302 caliber mold by NOE for paper patching, but I've not been working on it as hard as the 311291. I've been given a lot of excellent advice in my thread that you might want to read if you haven't already. One of the things that seems to have helped the most is this. When sizing from a 0.309-0.310 boolit in one step down to 0.302, even making sure the boolit is centered (ie: even sizing at the grease grooves) and all are weight sorted, place the long axis of the boolit between the blades of your calipers and rotate it along that axis by hand (like the boolit is being twisted by the bore with the calipers measuring the long sides of the boolit). Any variation on the dial indicates the boolit was deformed (like a banana) during the sizing process. The good ones will maintain (in my case) a true 0.3025" reading as the boolit is spun. I've been throwing out any that move the dial as much as 0.005" during this process just to weed out anything that might possibly affect the accuracy.

[CJR]

Anonym,

Looks like you're zeroing in on accurate PP loads. Have you tried any W760 powder that will give you close to 100% case filling, slowly accelerate your PPCB, but give you max velocity due to higher average pressure?

Best regards,

CJR

[OverMax]

Any variation on the dial indicates the boolit was deformed

Didn't know that situation was possible even. Always thought anything coming out of a resizer was trued and/or straightened. Thanks to you. I now have 150 bullets to check with the caliper. Oh well.
BTW I was contemplating the buying of a 301 NOE but its definitely not for tube fed magazines. (model 94 here.)

As far as a powder charge. The cartridge I'm paper patching for isn't all that impressive in the field. i.e. 30-30. I'm happy just getting close to a 100 yrd. bullseye. More or less to learn how to P-P is just a challenge for me to see if I can succeed at it.

[Anonym]

I have yet to find any in stock anywhere close or online, but I've been keeping an eye out for some. I've been trying loads with varying burn rates (not taking into the progressive/regressive nature of the powders) including Benchmark, IMR 4895, Reloader 15, Varget, IMR 4320, and IMR 4350. The 4895, Varget, 4320 and 4350 give decent results. The Varget/4320 and 4350 are on either side of the W760 as far as burn rates, and they are giving 100% case filling. I was surprised at the Reloader 15's results, but in all honesty, I haven't tried that powder again since testing for boolit concentricity.

With the boolit seated out at reasonable depths, the 4350 does pretty good, but seems to suffer when seated deeper and not getting a good amount of case volume. When that happens, I let the 4320 take over once it drops below the 4350 minimum charge amount...

[Anonym]

You're welcome, Overmax (I guess!). I didn't either until CJR told me about it and I started checking my own. Apparently it's like squeezing playdough through their little machines, and the lead can "curl" as it comes through the sizer if the loading is slightly off.

[Nobade]

Just a hint - I have been using WC860, duplexed, in my 30-30 and 32 Win Spl with paper patched boolits. Factory ballistics, mild pressure, and super good accuracy. I kick it with 5gr. IMR4227 and use enough 860 to set the proper seating depth so I get a bit of resistance as the lever closes. I wouldn't have thought such a slow powder would work in these small cases but it really shines if you boost it enough.

-Nobade

[OverMax]

Nobade:

Really? WC860!! That's really something. 50 cal powder in a 30-30. No wonder the need for a kick start powder ie >4227. lol
You commented (Factory ballistics) Just where would someone find that info?

[Nobade]

Nobade:

Really? WC860!! That's really something. 50 cal powder in a 30-30. No wonder the need for a kick start powder ie >4227. lol
You commented (Factory ballistics) Just where would someone find that info?

Which info? For velocity I find it on my chronograph. For load data you find it here, since it's sure not published anywhere in any load data book.

I have been playing with duplexed loads of slow ball powders for some time now, finding that they often give good results when combined with paper patched boolits in applications where you would not think they would work. It seems the slow powder acts as its own filler to get the boolit through the throat and into the bore undamaged, and if you boost the pressure enough with a kicker it can be made to burn with reasonable efficiency. I have yet to find an application where I had any overpressure problems, though you must use some judgement if working with cartridges having a large case capacity and small bore. Of course the 30-30 isn't one of those. You do use a lot of this slow powder compared to something like 3031 which would normally be more appropriate, but at the price it sells for that's not an issue.

So, nothing super wonderful or magic, but another technique that can be employed when working with paper patched boolits, which have their own rules unlike anything else you are likely to fire out of a rifle.

-Nobade

[barrabruce]

Noabe I got a tin of ww 785
Don't know if I should sprinkle it on the garden
Or use it any suggestions???
For 30-30

Iv'e had good results with adi 2206h think it vaget
Shoots better than a case full of 2208 in my rifle {some unburnt podwer granuales in the bore)
Didn't seem to get any faster after putting a bit more in (safe loads) just dirtier.
No chrono just calibrated eyeball and shoulder and target.

21.5 grns 2207 works well for me but I use a bit of dacron.

Barra

[Nobade]

From what I gather, ww785 should be useful in the 30-30. Similar in speed to WXR, so designed for magnum rifles like 7mm rem mag. It should be plenty safe, but I wouldn't try duplexing it until I shot a case full by itself to see what happened.

-Nobade

[wmitty]

Nobade

You deserve a Nobel Peace Prize for your work with the duplex loads involving the slow burning surplus powders. There are very few bargains "out there" these days but powder @ roughly six dollars a pound has to be one of the best deals going. (gibrass.com)