Patching 291's almost.

[OverMax]

Winchesters 785 was so near the same as Hodgdon's 450 that their only real differences were the labels on their containers. Both now discontinued but still considered 2 of the best powder ever produced for med to large capacity cases. I for one sure miss not having one or the other on my reloading bench.

[barrabruce]

think I see your question. Short answer is 22.0 MM. (1.5" = 25.4 x 1.5= 38.1 mm) tangent 30 degrees = .5774 = opposite / adjacent = opposite / 38.1 mm

38.1 mm x .5774 = 22 mm (actually 21.997 mm, but I doubt your ruler reads in .001 mm)

To figure the length of your side - 2 x PI x dia. = 2 x 3.1416 x .308" = 1.935" or 1 and 15/16" (49.15 mm)

I always wind up having to cut the patch a little longer it seems - I guess it shrinks and leaves a gap where the ends should meet.

good luck with your addiction.

Sorry wmitty but take the 302 say core. and do the PIxd
Then add the 2x thickness off paper say 2 thou=304 x pi
Mine

=0.302 x pi=0.9

[Old Coot]

OverMax;
You don't need a ruler, a calculator, sliderule, or micrometer to make a patch template.
Cut a strip of the paper you want to patch with.
Wrap it around the bullet TWICE.
Make a mark with a SHARP pencil where the paper wrap meets the first edge. That is you length.
Cut a piece of old plastic blind to that length with the angles. Remember you are making a parallelogram.
Cut a couple of patches and try them wet. They will stretch.
Adjust the length of your template.
Keep at it until the ends meet but do not overlap.
This process is called trial and error. It works, but is slower.
You can also make your template out of heavy paper, thin metal, plastic , virtually anything that will hold its shape, and be somewhat adjustable.
I hope your handle does not indicate how you load.
Brodie

[wmitty]

barra

You are right; I should be using the bore diameter in the calculation, rather than groove.

[OverMax]

I hope your handle does not indicate how you load.

More often than not sir.

Remember you are making a parallelogram

Well that makes a patch much more easier to measure i.e. being equal measurement on all four sides. According to the math I've been cutting my patches 1-15/16"th for a .302 dia. bullets 2 layer wrap. Appears to work OK. But the difficulty for me is its cutting of angles. 30* measurement is difficult and proven to be a challenge to get both ends to match up together seam to seam. Well within reason seam to seam that is.

[Anonym]

I cut at 45 degrees for the simplicity. Whatever your patch height, measure the same distance from one side and offset your square edge. The diagonal from the straight edge corner to your mark is 45 degrees. Now when you measure your patch length, just maintain that offset and you keep your consistent angle on your patch. Piece of cake!

[OverMax]

Got my Lee push thru resizer dies ordered today with Rick. .302 & .303. Also found out computer printers paper doesn't pay to use it as patch material. {well at least mine doesn't} Two near perfect wraps on a .302 boolit's got me .320 dried tight. Now if I were P/P ing for a 32 Special I'd be tickled. Although I did come across a couple interesting compressed powder charges where their cartridge Pressures were well below Max and still showing decent velocity's when use in 30-30 brass. Some up's & some downs but still making progress.~~ I think.
.

[OverMax]

Just couldn't swing it. 311291 boolit is just to difficult to patch for my pre-64 winny 94. Reason being: >It's just to stubby!!< 291 Boolit when set lightly up against its rifling left so little exposed lead to meet even the Minimum suggested OAL. Maybe 80% of its total surface area is required to be pushed back into its neck and or shell body.
Switched to 311041 Lyman boolit. 041. When its' used and set lightly to the edge of bore rifling they almost measure out at the Maximum end of suggested OAL. So this will be my choice of a patched boolit from now on. (311041) "Thought I had it made. Turned out just the opposite when I tried using 291s."

[OverMax]

Measuring is done. Lyman 311041 dropped cast raw boolit was resized to .303 then (wet) paper patched and allowed time to dry and measured .311 (without) its needing to be resized. Patched boolit's were seated high in their cartridge brass and chambered with some additional pressure into their forcing cone. That measurement is 2.573 time after time. Have re-set my Seater dies stem to 2.570 to reduce the boolits cramming some and not having any crimp what-so-ever being applied. I then observed very light score markings in equal segments around the boolits entire dia. from then on. And their paper patch's leading edge's are barley being touched.
Patch Papers most forward leading edge stop's ideally just a tad beyond the boolits furthermost Forward groove. (Crimp ring or groove as its called.)
The rifle's levering and/or functioning was checked with the using of a couple previously dummy patched cartridges. Everything seems to be working fine there.

Now for a little research into its powder and charge weight. For the time being I'm thinking maybe some IMR 4350 for the purpose. Then it's range time for a little target shooting.
For those curious to know. Its a winny pre-64 94 saddle carbine (1936 or 37 model) I'm patching here.

[OverMax]

I just learned a couple neat tricks.
I had some trouble with one patch paper recently I was trying out. Wet wrapped and dried. It many times just loosened itself once dried. For a couple patching secessions I was pulling the patches so tight they would tear before I got the boolit fully wrapped. Well strong like Bull technique wasn't working. So to stop the patches loosing. I tried Elmers (white) school glue. That simply thicken the patch in-between its layers and took longer to dry than plain water did. Back to the drawing board. I then tried egg white and flour separately. Either too slippery or gooey to bother with. Wife commented I should try sugar or a piece of hard candy for the purpose. Well fellow patcher's. "I lick those patches now."_ I use to do the water dipping patch deal. But I have found no better way to mix sugar and water in the right proportions other than just saliva and a piece of hard Butterscotch candy. Now, upon my boolit's drying. My patches are rock solid tight holding onto their boolits side walls once dried no matter what paper I use.

The other trick for my 311041's.
Because of my boolits forcing cone measurements. It's patch papers leading edge is best suited just above its crimp groove covering just half the next bore ridding ring surface. Its very hard to roll the patch exactly half that rings width. So what I do. I roll my patch a little long. Sometimes past the ring altogether. Still wet I than twist the patches tail tighter and pull its patch down ever so lightly to its correct location. By twisting and tweaking the patch tail. Its patch edge pulls down equally over the entire boolit's circumference. Leaving a nice equal & level looking patch edge. Now I know why patch tails were invented. i.e.> for the leveling of its patch's leading edge no doubt.

[OverMax]

Here's today's scoop. Dropped by my local Fedex Office for a couple copy's of something needing to be made. During a little pleasant conversation with the counter help. She commented that her office had different grades of paper available. From individual sheets to whole reams. {Hmm. Oh really!! I found that info quite interesting.} So I asked anything available in cotton fiber by chance? She showed me a folder full of different cotton fibered grades of blank papers. Hey! hey! hey! I found something I liked. Paid a whole $1.08 including sales tax for (6) sheets of 8-1/2 X11 paper. Not a whole lot of paper did I purchase. Just a tease amount to try out is all. BTW: I just place a order with Pats Reloading for a jug of WC860. So~~ I got some paper_ boolits _and powder coming. Checks in today mail ~~ and I'm broke till the first of the month. But I'm still happy.

[OverMax]

Tried patching a couple boolits last night before turning in with my newly acquired Fedex (so called) cotton fibered paper. With high expectations my hopes were dashed as it turned out to be the worst patch paper I've encountered to date. Couldn't roll a reasonable tight wrap without its tearing or hearing my swearing so I was informed by my Better/Half at breakfast. Yup!! my printer here has 5 new sheets of paper in its draw today. Looks like my littl 3" X 6" 3-ring Green line memo pad paper is the Champ to beat. "Oh well it is what it is."

[Old Coot]

OverMax, How are you cutting the strips from the paper sheets for your patches? If you are cutting the strips lengthwise you are cutting with the grain of the paper. Try cutting the strips from the width of the paper (across the bottom or top). This will give you more "stretch" to the patch. You might also try 25# tracing paper. That velum seems to be a little tougher than other papers. Brodie

[OverMax]

Good point to bring up Brodie.

The FedEx sheet paper was cut side to side. (Not) length wise. Dry it felt stiff and hard to tear. No matter it still was the weakest of all I've tried when whetted. I'm not so sure the young Lass that sold me the paper actually knew whether she was selling cotton fibered or wood. Although I was told it was cotton fibered and again when I held a single sheet up to the light to make sure. It was almost translucent or fiber less in appearance under florescent lighting. Because of that. I honestly thought I was buying cotton.

I've had pretty good luck using a note pad paper. Small sheets but it seems to have the same feel and patching quality as Green Bar but less thick than Green Bar. I do have some Green Bar here to make comparisons with. But not much of it. Maybe 7-8 sheets is all I have left of it. When that's gone. I have Buckshots list of preferred patching papers copied and sitting in my Documents section for a future reference. Thanks for the question and Tip Old Coot it was appreciated.

[OverMax]

Waiting on my WC860 (ball) powder to get here. "Finding it hard to hold my horses."_ Been a whole three days gone by since I ordered it. In the mean time:

Been trying to use a full case of 4350 with my boolit's lately. I (don't) think (it) works well for the purpose. Dang stick powder!! Compressing it seems to tear up the heels on all my patched boolit's. Not really sure if those torn patch heels affect their boolit's accuracy as the boolit actually engraves its side-wall going down the barrel. Curious if anyone has encountered or a thought on this unusual dilemma I'm experiencing for the time being?

[OverMax]

Saturday before Easter. Still waiting on my G.I. Surplus ball powder.
Wife's cooking those Easter hot dishes for tomorrows company with me sitting at the kitchen table with nothing to do other than hoping for a little taste or a spoon (feed me) full every now and then. A little bored I decided to make a wrapping comparison between Green Bar and my little 3-ring Note Pad paper (6"X 3-1/2".)
After wet wrapping 5-boolits each. Green Bar was OK. But I honestly think that little Note Pad paper was stronger and thinner. Green Bar's tail it was so easy to unintentionally over screw and tear its tail off. Note pad paper on the other hand was less likely to tear and its tail twisted down rather tight. Far and away tighter than what I could (pressure wise) apply to a Green Bars patched tail. Just thought some of you's might be interested is all. __Happy Easter to all.

[barrabruce]

Some papers work better my just wetting them and not sodden.

[OverMax]

Yes good point to bring up. Your right on that barrabruce. Wetting verses a soaking does make a difference. Especially with Green Bar paper. I suppose there are dozens of different paper brands to use for the purpose. Why that little 3-ring note pad paper I'm using is perhaps 30 plus years old.
BTW: I'm ordering up another Push-thru die for my needs. I found with using paper similar to Green Bar or Green Bar itself I need a (smaller) undersize die. Something in the neighborhood of .301_So's to get to my preferred 2-wrap of .311 on those 311041s. Then its a matter of just getting my ball powder.

[OverMax]

A recent thing I came to realize. Is how important it is to resize a boolit to a specific diameter before its patching. Many old experienced patcher's (wet) wrap their boolit's (only twice) so to get that desired spot on boolit circumference wanted after his patch's drying. {doing so, eliminates a patched boolits second resizing.} Resizing a boolit that second time after its patch has dried I've found more likely than not loosens the patch's tightly wound wraps. I also suspect a (loose fitting) patch entering its barrels forcing cone will tear away from its boolit grooving prematurely. Which no doubt is a prime cause of boolit inaccuracy.

[Harter66]

It is a mixed bag really . Some rifles will shoot better dry patched than wet . It is another step in trials to find the "1 that works".