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Thread: Triple Seven fffg Catridge Catastrophe???

  1. #21
    Black Powder 100%


    cajun shooter's Avatar
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    My point was that if you have a BP rifle like a front stuffer then there are ways to obtain the correct powder it was designed for. Just as Don posted, Buffalo Arms is shipping BP there.
    I would try making my own before shooting a sub, they are just like everything else in this world that wants to play like but not take the steps to do so. It's much easier to just say, I can't get it.
    I had a gunsmith who did all the warranty work for EMF ruin a brand new TTN shotgun of mine by using a sub in it.
    I told him that I shot nothing but 100% BP in all of my guns in the SASS matches that the gun was to be used in. He advised that he had a friend that shot BP in SASS matches and he would get some 12 ga. shells from him. Well, It seems that most who shoot the subs tell everyone that they shoot in the BP classes. A rule that I would liked changed and only allow the real thing.
    The gunsmith shot my new shotgun with the subs, boxed it up and shipped it to my FFL via a 5 day delivery. I almost fell over when I opened the box. My new shotgun had barrels that were solid RUST!!
    I sent several pics to the company and they fired that gunsmith and sent me a new gun. Had he used real BP, my gun would of still been good.
    The investigation turned up the reason for the Rust, it seems that the BP ammo was actually loaded with Pyrodex. Later David
    Shooter of the "HOLY BLACK" SASS 81802 AKA FAIRSHAKE; NRA ; BOLD; WARTHOG;Deadwood Marshal;Bayou Bounty Hunter; So That his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat; 44 WCF filled to the top, 210 gr. bullet

  2. #22
    Boolit Buddy greywuuf's Avatar
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    Understood, my point is....regular people can NOT ship via the US mail any powder or loaded ammo. Regular people can go to the store and buy Subs, son e of them CAN NOT buy black powder. I'll give you my address and you go ahead and see what it takes and what it costs to get a can of real black powder to me. I bet you have no idea. All of Alaska is NOT Anchorage....that is a 6 hour road trip for me ..(each way) seriously at least a couple hundred bucks in gas alone ($3.00 bucks a gallon here it has come down...Was closer to 4 at the begining of winter). The Question was asked "why would anyone use a sub instead of smokeless or real black?". The answer is in my case because that is all I have....all that is available to buy of the shelf with 1000 miles of me and postal regulations and international law make it very expensive to ship. Simple as that.

  3. #23
    Boolit Buddy greywuuf's Avatar
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    Just got off the phone with Buffalo arms. Yes they can ship to me....via freight forwarder....meaning up to 300 pounds is all one price (shipping) approaching 200 bucks. So I can go to the store buy one can of pyrodex for 20 bucks or I can buy one pound of black powder for 245 bucks and wait upwards of a month for it to be shipped via barge and then delivered to a freight dock.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master

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    Please don't misunderstand my post I fully understand why you can't get real BP and it is usually much easier to get the subs for a lot of us down here even with BP being available. For myself I just order it and wait on it, it usually takes only a few days to arrive (again I know that's not an option for you) but for a lot of guys they had rather just pick up the subs a pound at a time at Wally World and be done with it -to each his own I suppose. Of course for a ML if real BP is not practical then that leaves nothing but the subs, that or just don't shoot, but then that leaves the BP cartridges. Subs will make them go bang ok but it's nothing at all like shooting real BP since they (any of the subs) load, shoot, look and even smell different but they still have all the extra care that BP requires and in some ways are even more critical, a suitable smokeless used as a "sub" in this case would seem to me to be a viable choice and is no more "improper" than one of the subs -some of which are higher pressure than either BP or some of the smokeless loads. But then if the right smokeless is not available either then that only leaves Pyrodex, T7, etc and any of them would certainly beat not shooting at all!

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by cajun shooter View Post
    My point was that if you have a BP rifle like a front stuffer then there are ways to obtain the correct powder it was designed for. Just as Don posted, Buffalo Arms is shipping BP there.
    I would try making my own before shooting a sub, they are just like everything else in this world that wants to play like but not take the steps to do so. It's much easier to just say, I can't get it.
    I had a gunsmith who did all the warranty work for EMF ruin a brand new TTN shotgun of mine by using a sub in it.
    I told him that I shot nothing but 100% BP in all of my guns in the SASS matches that the gun was to be used in. He advised that he had a friend that shot BP in SASS matches and he would get some 12 ga. shells from him. Well, It seems that most who shoot the subs tell everyone that they shoot in the BP classes. A rule that I would liked changed and only allow the real thing.
    The gunsmith shot my new shotgun with the subs, boxed it up and shipped it to my FFL via a 5 day delivery. I almost fell over when I opened the box. My new shotgun had barrels that were solid RUST!!
    I sent several pics to the company and they fired that gunsmith and sent me a new gun. Had he used real BP, my gun would of still been good.
    The investigation turned up the reason for the Rust, it seems that the BP ammo was actually loaded with Pyrodex. Later David
    So what are you saying Dave? Real BP fouling is not corrosive?

  6. #26
    Boolit Grand Master Don McDowell's Avatar
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    Real powder fouling is nowhere near as corrosive as internet myth would have you believe, and certainly less than pyrodex.
    Long range rules, the rest drool.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    I've been around flintlocks since the mid 1970's and have seen my fair share of neglected rifles after being used with the "holy black" and its not pretty.

    As far as Pyrodex goes I'll take your word for it. I use it sometimes but I don't neglect to clean my rifles afterwords so corrosion is not a problem.

    Motor

  8. #28
    Boolit Bub paul s's Avatar
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    Yep, what he said!

    Quote Originally Posted by oldred View Post
    Don't misunderstand I am not at all trying to be a BP purist but once again I have to ask, when it comes to the subs WHY? If you don't want to use real BP, and I understand there may be several good reasons for why you can't or don't want to, then why not just use an appropriate smokeless BP equivalent load and avoid all the hassles? After all shooting one of the subs is just as different from shooting BP as shooting smokeless so why bother? It looks, loads, shoots and even smells different and is in no way "authentic" so I just fail to see the point since it is neither smokeless nor BP and is not like shooting either, it's just a third kind of way to load and shoot. However that's just me and the stuff does go bang just fine even if it is dirty and corrosive so if you like shooting it then I am not trying to say you shouldn't but rather I just have to wonder what's the point?

  9. #29
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    Motor, Well let me see if I can tell you exactly what I mean. First, Yes I'm saying that real BP is not even close to being corrosive like any of the so called subs. I have shot BP since 1970 and was there when the salesman walked in with the first Pyrodex to be in the Baton Rouge, La. area. They gave us all of the Please buy me instead of the Dupont Black powder you are now using information telling us why Pyrodex was better.
    Well we went and shot the stuff and waited until the next day to clean the guns as we did all the time with our Dupont. What we saw put us into shock as every gun had a barrel full of corrosion!! It took some hard scrubbing to get those guns clean. I have never shot any sub since and will not. If BP becomes extinct, I will become a smokeless shooter, not a sub shooter.
    I shoot my SASS matches on Saturday and don't clean my guns until Monday sometimes Tuesday with not a single problem, not even a hint of anything wrong.
    If you want to come to Louisiana, I will be more than happy to do a SXS test with you and your guns. Just remember you are going to be in a very high humidity area.
    I will say the very same thing that was posted by another member, If you can't get any real BP and don't care for the hassle of trying to find it, then why shoot a fake powder that only adds chemicals to make it smoke that is not like it at all. The whole thing is neither BP nor smokeless but a breed of powder that is all it's own.
    I don't care if you purchase a ton of the stuff, my problem has been when sub shooters want to compare the loads with real BP loads in this forum. Take Care David
    Shooter of the "HOLY BLACK" SASS 81802 AKA FAIRSHAKE; NRA ; BOLD; WARTHOG;Deadwood Marshal;Bayou Bounty Hunter; So That his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat; 44 WCF filled to the top, 210 gr. bullet

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
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    To our Alsaka pard, I feel for Ya, man. I sure hope your choice of subs is NOT limited to Pyrustdex. There used to be several subs other than 777 or Pyrustdex.

    I have never had a corrosion problem with real Holy Black, be it crappy Elephant, Goex, Shuetzen, or Swiss. I have waited weeks in between cleanings when shooting regularly on once or twice weekly schedule. With Pyrodex, I would get heavy pitting and fuzzy rust "growth" even after hot soapy water cleanings and then oiling.

    A lot of the bad reputation for corrosion with BP is due to old time mercuric primers and caps. Flinters would really have to be neglected, even here in humid WV to be corroded by real black powder. The quality of lube will play a roll, if one uses lard or other salty grease in their lube recipe, you will get corrosion. If the lube quality and or quantity is inadequate to where you get excessive barrel heat, say to where it is difficult to touch your barrel at the end of a cowboy stage; then you will be more prone to rusting. If you are getting excessive fouling to where the weapon is losing accuracy, it will be more prone to corrosion as such fouling also draws and holds moisture after the fun is done. I cleaned a Marlin rifle this AM that has been shot exclusively with real black powder since new, about 17 years now. Last shot Past November with Swiss under PRS boolits with Emmerts lube, about 50 rounds. I had wiped it down and patched it with Ballistol and its been down in my humid basement in a wooden gun cabinet since. Not a speck of rust and the barrel looks pristine.

    prs

  11. #31
    Boolit Buddy brad925's Avatar
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    You cannot clean a gun that has shot pyrodex the same way as one that is shooting BP. When cleaning a gun that has shot pyrodex the use of a mild solution of vinigar is needed to neutralize the salts left by the pyrodex. I use windex with vinigar.There is not enough vinigar in it to hurt the blueing but it will neutralize the salts. Hogdon recommends a 50\50 water vinigar mix for soaking the cases as well but only for ten minutes so it doesnt etch the cases then scrub and rinse them. Just like you dont clean your smokeless rifles like your BP rifles, you dont clean your rifle you have shot pyrodex out of like you would if you shot BP.
    Lean into 'er and let 'er buck!!!

  12. #32
    Boolit Master Nobade's Avatar
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    The old GI bore cleaner works well for Pyro. Designed to clean out residue from corrosive primers. I would clean like normal for BP, then use that bore cleaner, then lots of oil, then redo it the next day. Once I learned how aggressive that stuff was I didn't have any more problems with rusty guns. But the initial discoveries were dramatic, trying to treat it like I would with BP.

    -Nobade

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
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    I have used 777 in a variety of cartridges pistol and rifle. 32S&w to 11mm Comblain and 50/70 . No problem.
    To answer the question"why Use sub's.
    The answer is I want To
    . Plain and simple
    NRA Endowment Member
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  14. #34
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by greywuuf View Post
    "I have ordered and received BP any time I needed some. There was not a BP shortage while the smokeless and 22LR ammo thing was and is still going on."

    well that is also a problem for some of us. REAL P is classed as an explosive by ATF and requires separate storage and shipping rules. My local gun shops do NOT carry real black, AND being that I am in Alaska I can NOT get BP shipped to me ( ok I can but I pay two hazmat fee's and a freight charge of about $130 for ANY amount up to 300 pounds or one pallet )

    SO I can get real BP for about $180/ lb Or I can buy the Subs off the shelf for about $20 .... and they never ran out even during the powder shortage ( which to a large extent is still going on )

    that is one of the reasons I shoot subs in my front stuffers and in BPC
    http://www.norwestcompany.com/indent.htm

    don't know if you are anywhere close to Fairbanks ... but even tho he didn't carry some brands and mostly GOEX regular 1, 2, 3, and 4F powder ... you can get "real" black powder from this source ... at least I did for the 15 years I lived up there. another feller in the Anchorage area but I cant remember his handle nor a company name.

    if you contact Norwest ... tell Swanny I sent ya over ... wont carry any water but I bet he will remember the biggest guy he ever sold powder to ... LOL
    WHEN ALL IS SAID AND DONE...MORE WILL BE SAID THEN DONE

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by cajun shooter View Post
    I told him that I shot nothing but 100% BP in all of my guns in the SASS matches that the gun was to be used in. He advised that he had a friend that shot BP in SASS matches and he would get some 12 ga. shells from him. Well, It seems that most who shoot the subs tell everyone that they shoot in the BP classes. A rule that I would liked changed and only allow the real thing.
    Well, that's pretty selfish. You don't like something, so you think you have to ruin everybody else's fun by banning the powder they use even though their use of it has no effect on you. Oh, and don't try to use the argument that "It's not authentic" because SASS allows so many non authentic things in their competitions that it's not even funny. NCOWS is another story though.

  16. #36
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    Enough! I have created a sub forum for black powder substitutes so each can have an area to discus their particular thoughts without negativity from the other. Use them or lose them.

    Robert
    "Things always get better once thought, time, and money are applied in the correct amounts at the correct time"
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    "The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion."
    - Albert Camus -

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by No_1 View Post
    .......I have created a sub forum for black powder substitutes so each can have an area to discus their particular thoughts without negativity from the other.

    Robert
    Rob:

    Good call................hopefully it will keep the Peace.

    RRR
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  18. #38
    Boolit Mold
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    Once again, a question about a sub was asked and before it could be answered, a fellow who never uses a sub and probably shouldn't be trolling this thread, has to chime in with his negative query about "why" we choose to shoot the powder that we do. Oh, he's nice about it alright, kind of like the lawyer who's very cordial, but still trying to send you to the hoosegow. And he is so prejudiced about it, he keeps coming back to troll.

    We get your point. Because you don't use subs like some of us here do, you are morally and intellectually superior to those of us who do use them. We get that.

    By the way, I use both. The subs are easier to load and clean up afterwards. The real deal goes BOOM and spits fire and flame. Both make SMOKE-both real smoke and the so-called fake smoke, whatever that is. Both are fun to shoot. Plus both are legal in frontier cartridge. If you want to get into "not authentic", lets start with short stroking guns.

    Thanks for this sub thread. If we could only keep it from being hijacked.

  19. #39
    +1 longinosoap

    My entire line of thinking here started out when I was considering heavy .45 Colt loads shooting in the 30,000 PSI range. When powder was getting difficult to find, I ran into a bunch of the Triple 7 fffg and thought I would give it a try. My thought was that it was not anywhere near those pressures. And, I was not aware of the warning at the time...actually read that AFTER firing my test rounds...that is when the questions started. When the velocities showed in the low 900s with small SD and grouping was nice, I did not give it a thought that there may be something wrong with the load until I brought it up on this forum.
    Last edited by Southern Shooter; 04-20-2015 at 03:18 PM.

  20. #40
    Boolit Mold
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    Southern shooter, I am not very good at being PC, but for goodness sake, hijacking a thread that's only a few minutes old is really looking hard to make sure that everyone knows one is morally superior than we poor souls who choose to shoot subs.

    But, back to your point. Lots of pards I shoot with use Triple 7 and have recommended to me to try it, which I never have. I read threads like this to learn, and I had never heard of this warning, and I am sure most of the guys I shoot with had never heard of it either. I use Pinnacle (which is no longer available at PowderInc) or APP and am quite satisfied with what they do and how they perform for what I shoot. So will probably not try Triple 7. But now I can tell my shooting pards about this warning and they can research it themselves.

    Like I said, I shoot both subs and real BP. I don't like having to mix and lube bullets for the real stuff but I d like the fire and flames and sparks it spits out, and of course the boom. But I like subs because they are easier to load (no lube needed) and are easy to clean guns afterwards. Still don't know if you ever got a good answer to your original post.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check