Think it up, figure it out

[Digital Dan]

Have a project underway that might be on interest, maybe?

Objective: MOA precision to 100 yards, MV 1050 fps, bullet of .308-.323 caliber/180-215 grains 40:1 Alloy, LLA lube
Tool: T/C Contender Carbine, 20" barrel twisted 1:10" that will visit the Midas Shop
Options under consideration: .30 M1/.32 S&W Long/.32 H&R/.32 WSL/.38 Spcl

The .32 WSL was the original chasis for the M1 Carbine case. It is semi-rimmed and can be made with .32-20 Win. brass. Concerns about the M1 case go to its tapered form. The others are cylindrical inside and out. Cylindrical cases and lead bullets are a good combination IMHO. BC for the .30/.32 bullets in the range of weights above runs in the .35 range at Mach 1. Ballistic reviews indicate a 50 yard zero will yield about 7" of drop at 100 yards and 1.7" of drift in a full value 10 MPH crosswind. Retained velocity at 100 yards is 980 fps. The .32 caliber of 215 grains is very slightly superior. The .38/.357 scenario gets a bit messy with bullet size/weight/form. It could/would work, just not sure I want to get that boisterous.

/Quick Load/
Cartridge : .30 Carbine
Bullet : .309, 180, LEE C309-180-R
Useable Case Capacity: 9.333 grain H2O = 0.606 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 1.680 inch = 42.67 mm
Barrel Length : 18.0 inch = 457.2 mm

Solo 1250 Load dens: 82.0 Chg: 4.2 Vel: 1065 Muzzle exit Pres: 741
GREEN DOT ..............80.0........3.8.......1039.......... ............... 717
RED DOT.................. 81.9....... 3.5.......1014..........................685

Pondering: Barrels? MGM uses Green Mountain blanks, I know not a thing about either. Not sure at this point what Bullberry uses, or if there are any other companies I should get in touch with.

Any thoughts appreciated.

D

[Yodogsandman]

Because of availability of components, I would opt for either the .30 cal or .35 cal. Have you considered a caliber with a larger case capacity and then just use reduced loads. You might run out of case before you have enough powder for your accuracy requirements. Maybe along the lines of like a 30-30, 357 Max or 35 Remington.

I've been playing with a 30-30 win H&R, 113gr boolits and Bullseye for about 700 FPS. I also used to load the 35 rem with 204gr boolits and 11gr Unique for about 1100 FPS. Good accuracy in both.

[Digital Dan]

Larger case capacity is not necessary to achieve the velocity objective. Give the equivalence of the M1 and .32 WSL case in capacity, I ASSUME the load data above is more or less equivalent. Note the load densities above. High load density is not the end all of ballistic consistency but it's a very good place to start. In the event I was not clear above, this particular barrel will be suppressed. Note too, the muzzle exit pressure. Those are very low numbers and reflect the high expansion ratio, a metric shared by the .22 rimfire class cartridges.

I have a very specific use in mind. I work as a volunteer for the state of Florida in a hog eradication program and the area where I do this is surrounded by residential/park lands. The state does not like to offend the neighbors. My experience, limited as it is, tells me that anything supersonic, suppressed or not, makes identifiable noise. Have been shooting hogs with CB Shorts for the last 7-8 years and they work well enough. Florida just legalized hunting with suppressors, so.........I view it as an opportunity to play around a little. Typical shots range to 10-15 yards in the cover I hunt. Longest shot in the period was 38 yards.

With all that said, I appreciate your thoughts and somewhat in prelude, I have done some work as you suggested with the .30-30 and Bullseye/SR4759 and a few other powder combinations. It would work no doubt, certainly at close range. I don't know it would meet the objectives I pursue however and I'm not going to put a can on the .30-30 barrel in any case. It is the other half of the T/C carbine and shoots far too well to start fooling with it.

Thanks

[MT Chambers]

Most on here would recommend the .300 blackout, not me, I'd recommend the .30 Br. most accurate cb caliber, check out CBA match results.

[Harter66]

I did run a 200 gr boolit in a 1-9 x39 that shot better than factories . Which in the rifle in question isn't saying a lot but that would make your cut also . The was an 8x33 that is more obscure. I have also run a 7x6.8 Rem ,the lighter bullets/boolits are easy to top out at high speed. I haven't rung out the heavies but with a 287-150 (hunter) NOE I had to go below 4.0 Unique to get below 1100fps. I have a 168 to try but haven't yet. The downside of both the x39 and 6.8 is the odd head dia..

[Digital Dan]

the odd head dia..

I resemble that remark.

Probably, maybe, if I was going to run a bottleneck case I'd just go with the BO or Whisper and call it done.

[runfiverun]

the 300 black-out is what your looking for.
MV of 1050 easy enough.
@ 3.5- 4 grs of whatever fast powder you got.
brass and boolits 100gr up to 230gr or so are easily obtainable.
I use the same 3.5gr 700-x load in my 300 [with a 230gr boolit] as I use in my 32-20 brass cut down and blown out in my 30 carbine revolver [with a 100gr boolit]

[Tar Heel]

The 32-20 with 170gr bullets.

Attachment 128524

In the T/C 10" 32-20 barrel, these are deadly accurate.

[leadman]

I shoot a Contender with a 18" 300 Whisper barrel. Can load from 32 S&W velocities up to over 2,000 fps. Easy to get the velocity you are after with a 200 gr boolit. Talk to SSK about it as JD Jones developed it.

[wlc]

I'd have to vote the 357Max with 250-300gr bullets. I have one in a 12 twist, 16.5" from MGM that I bought just to shoot the heavier weights out of suppressed. "lil gun for the 300's and there are several powders that work well with the 250's. If you don't want to go Max then I'd also be comfortable suggesting the 300BLK. The Max is easier to load for though being that its a straight wall vs the bottle neck of the blk. Once you get through having to shoot in town you can go with lighter bullets and really push them. I wish I still lived down south as I think the max would be a great close range deer round loaded with 180's or 200's.

[Digital Dan]

Ummm...32-20 might deserve another look.

Tar Heel, what's your twist on that? You run anything heavier than 170?

Leadman, Thanks for the reminder about SSK, totally overlooked/forgot about them... -sigh-




runfiverun,

All, I know this sounds a little off the wall and appreciate the thoughts on the B.O/Whisper, but I'm not going in that direction. First thing you know I'd be trying to do stuff I'm already doing with other cartridges in other guns and well, that would be repetitive and redundant. Over and Over Again. I don't want the low/high velocity option. No jacketed bullets. Single purpose, single load, odd is not an objective or obstacle.

[runfiverun]

totally understand.
that's why I mentioned the shortened and blown out 32-20 case. [it has just about the same capacity of the 30 carbine]
the 357 max is a good one too, I run the saeco #248 at 250 grains over aa-2230 in my Dan Wesson revolver and it's stable and accurate.
I think the revolver has a quicker twist in it, it could do the same with the 200 gr rcbs too.
in my opinion you'd be better served with a 357 mag case and a throat cut for the 35 Remington in a rifle.

the 327 case would be one to look at too.
it could handle a multitude of 31 cal booits and getting a mold cut is just an E-mail away to accurate.
it's similar to the 32-20 but has a straighter case shape, and is close in capacity with the advantage of stronger brass.

[Digital Dan]

The .327 is on the list, didn't post it on the first round.

[Blackwater]

Dan, hogs aren't really that hard to kill, especially when close and you can place the bullet precisely and well, so power level isn't really an issue. Lots of folks get them with .22 RF's, so a carbine or BO would be plenty, and being .30 cal., you probably already have a suitable mould. With any suppressed gun, the smaller the case, the more efficiently it is suppressed, and the quieter it will be. You're spot on about the MUZZLE pressure being the key to a suppressed load. The Whisper was developed by JDJ specifically for a suppressed sniper load for taking out sentries without alarming the bad guys, and since they needed a round that might be called upon to perform from some distance, he experimented with cases and finally settled on the Fireball case as being just enough to get a long, heavy, ballisticly efficient bullet that would be as wind resistant as possible to the target velocity, which is always just below the speed of sound so there's no sonic boom/crack from the bullet after it leaves the barrel. For your purposes, the carbine case would be even a tad MORE efficient, and on hogs, any bullet of 150 gr. up should do what you're wanting to do, and if not, it'd be a very simple and relatively inexpensive thing to cure it by running a BO reamer into the barrell. I doubt you'll really need to do that, though.

One point to consider, possibly: Those long, heavy bullets penetrate like crazy, and if the area is settled, you might want to stick with a bullet that penetrates just enough, so pass throughs won't endanger anyone. A HP might even be a good choice. It all depends on the size of the hogs as to what level of penetration is needed. With the Contender, you COULD have some HP's and some solids and just load whichever is indicated by the size of the hogs that present themselves to you, if you can close the gun quietly enough on the cartridge - not always easy.

Still, the less powder capacity of whatever ctg. you choose, the easier/more effective the suppressor will be. That's the physics of it. The rest is just judgment in what level of power you need, at what range, and what type of bullet. The carbine case is plenty strong enough, and certainly can be obtained for cheap, and should have the capacity, but I'm not a big fan of rimless rounds in the Contender, so ..... ya' pays yer monies an' takes yer choices. The .32/20 is panned for thin, weak brass. A .38 Special necked down, or maybe even used as is, would be my pick of the litter - good brass, cheap, resalability of the barrel eventually (?), acccuracy, power level sufficient in the TC at allowable pressures in that gun, and it's darn sure accurate enough. If not a .38, then I'd go with a .357 so a long bullet wouldn't intrude down into the case too far for good but quiet velocity. Fast burning powders also help to reduce muzzle pressure. Just another suggestion to keep you as confused as possible. ;^)

[Jeff Michel]

If you're considering MGM, they offer a .30 Reece, a necked and shortened .357. I use .38 special brass and never worry about trimming. Forming is limited to lubing and running them into the sizing die. Very accurate with cast or jacketed, I've shot everything from 311008 to 311299. MGM will make the chamber dimensions to your specifications.

[wlc]

Another thought after reading the post a couple above this one where the 38 special was mentioned. I've shot 38's through my Max barrel and though they weren't overly accurate due to the super long jump to the rifling in the Max chamber they were almost hollyweird quiet through my suppressor. Let me suggest a 357 magnum chamber in a faster twist so as to stabilize 250 gr bullets and not take up so much powder space in the case. I was reading a forum post on another forum from a guy in TX that has a Ruger 77/357 that he had the barrel cut down and threaded for a suppressor. He was shooting 250 gr bullets(cast) through the rifle suppressed and was giving the hogs the smack down with it. IIRC he was using w231 powder and loading to mag length, but without trying to find his posts again can't remember the particulars of the load.

[wlc]

Another thought after reading the post a couple above this one where the 38 special was mentioned. I've shot 38's through my Max barrel and though they weren't overly accurate due to the super long jump to the rifling in the Max chamber they were almost hollyweird quiet through my suppressor. Let me suggest a 357 magnum chamber in a faster twist so as to stabilize 250 gr bullets and not take up so much powder space in the case. I was reading a forum post on another forum from a guy in TX that has a Ruger 77/357 that he had the barrel cut down and threaded for a suppressor. He was shooting 250 gr bullets(cast) through the rifle suppressed and was giving the hogs the smack down with it. IIRC he was using w231 powder and loading to mag length, but without trying to find his posts again can't remember the particulars of the load.

ETA: I went and searched for the post I was referencing above. Guy was using special brass in the magnum chamber instead of mag brass with the 250 grain bullets loading with 231 and his data showed using 5.0gr giving about 995fps.

[Digital Dan]

Blackwater, you're sure 'nuff correct about hogs dyin' easy enough and we are pretty much on the same page with muffler physics I think. 7 years, 100+ hogs and well, CB shorts, 1 shot and flop. Brain or cervical vertebrae are big enough targets, power is over rated.

Of the whole lot, I shot two pigs twice, the rest one shot curtain calls. The most recent was about a year back with a 10/22, placement error or bullet veer I don't know. Neck shot with the bullet found under the hide offside in any case and a squealing pig the result momentarily. The bullet was deformed a bit, something I don't often see with the CB Shorts which penetrate like all the dickens.

The first twofer occurred with this fellow.



Backside of the same head:



Shot in the crease behind the left ear, the bullet placement was perfect. Momentum was a little shy as it had to pass two layers of bone to get to the brain. It deflected off the inner skull. Hog looked up to see what was annoying him and went back to rooting around. Little wind shift and he got a whiff of me and started getting kinda pissy about it and glared at me real hard.



So, aside from doing something off the beaten path it occurs that I don't run as fast as I used to, and can't climb a tree for squat. 80% of the hogs I shoot are sub to marginal 100# critters, but there are some larger ones of course. Had occasion 4-5 years back to whack 5 without taking a step. There was a 200# barr, a sow of about 175 and 3 60# shoats. All I could say afterwards was "Honey, light the grill!" #6 went "wee-wee-wee" and ran all the way home as I recall. That was a lot of skinning...

This, not so much.

[Digital Dan]

So...I went and looked up the .30 Reece....interesting little doodad that one. Hmmmmmmmm



http://www.reedercustomguns.com/info...cartridges.htm

Following is about 8-9 years old dialog fwiw:

I designed the .30 REECE and have been working with it since the early 1980's. It is a shortened .357 case with a .004" total taper.

I have load data using 19 powders with bullet weights of 100, 110, 130, 150, 165, 180, 200, and 220 gr. bullets. Barrel lengths of 10", 14", 15", 22" 23", and 24" were load tested. The Thompson Center Custom Shop, MGM, and OTT, LLC all will make barrels for it. Brass correctly head stamped .30 REECE and die sets are available from me, made by Hornady.

I am trying to get the silhouette shooters to try it. It will push a 150 gr. bullet out of a 15" barrel at 1936 fps. accurately. I do have a small data booklet I include with all die orders. Far from being complete, but maybe by summer this year I will have all my data in one place to print. I have a shilen select match grade barrel I started with and have been cutting off 1" at a time. In the end I will have data from 8" to 24". I cut and re-crown each time.

The cost of brass is $20. per hundred and die sets are $45. Shipping for both with tracking $9.50. If less I will refund. Personal check is fine. Send to : Carson Reece, 220 West Commercial, Lebanon, Mo, 65536. I usually ship out the next day if the post office is open. If you need any other info let me know. Will try to help.

Hope this info helps.
Carson Reece

[Tar Heel]

Ummm...32-20 might deserve another look.

Tar Heel, what's your twist on that? You run anything heavier than 170?

I will have to look it up. It's a stock T/C barrel (10" bull) with a .308 bore. They did us all a favor with that barrel. Shoots 110g .308 varmint bullets, cast .313 bullets, almost everything. I have not shot any heavier than 170g bullets. That is at the edge of the envelope. The silhouette shooters used to use the 170g bullets a lot due to their knock down ability. Here is a link to the varmint loads. I'll look for or measure the twist rate.