Dumb Question on PP direction

[M-Tecs]

What are the best BPCR or BPTR forums or sites to learn from the top shooters? I am looking for some info on what the winners are using for chamber and reamer designs for both greasers and PP.

[BrentD]

What are the best BPCR or BPTR forums or sites to learn from the top shooters?

There really isn't one. That's the problem. The top shooters aren't posters anyway, and never really were. You won't find posts by Gullo or Chilson anywhere. They are smart guys and avoid the public places due to the low signal:noise ratio. Others in the top echelon don't seem to post either and that's triple true for paper patch shooting where more disinformation is spread than anything else.

Probably the best strategy if you are looking to learn something specific is to email 2 or 3 of them privately and see if they will help. Almost all good shooters really are nice guys and will be more than willing to help, but also some of them simply don't email much at all. That's not because they are rude or deliberately unhelpful - they simply don't do extended email conversations.

Listening to folks on the net was one of the biggest obstacles for me to overcome and while I did get lots of help, at some point, it became more unhelpful than helpful.

[Don McDowell]

What are the best BPCR or BPTR forums or sites to learn from the top shooters? I am looking for some info on what the winners are using for chamber and reamer designs for both greasers and PP.

Probably not going to get that sort of information on any of the forums, unless somebody comes up with something new, trots it out and wins with it.
As you're in Minnesota your best bet to gather that sort of information is to attend matches put on by Ron and Barb Walters, Ray Hansen, and travel over to Lodi Ws, or down to Milan Ill, when they have matches. Bismark ND also has a few midrange matches.
Other than that a call to Eron Ahmer at Sulphur Gulch gunsmithing in Parker Co, will get you some quality info. I think in the end tho you'll find that a lot of the top finishers are shooting standard Shiloh, CPA , and other chambers. There are some "special" designed chambers etc floating around, but they'll likely be in the minority.
Most all of the shooters are lurking around the various forums, they just don't post much unless it's something that really grabs their interest.

[brstevns]

Bump to #53

[BrentD]

Bump to #53

Forgot about that. Yes, it's okay if it will slip in the paper. All of mine do. That said, the paper is still snugly on the bullet and it will not fall off nor lift away from the bullet so it could catch on the edge of the chamber or anything like that. After you have wound a few on, it gets pretty easy and you will see that it is no where near as labor intensive or challenging as folks make it seem. Working up a load is drop dead simple too, there is basically only one thing to vary and that's the powder charge. And you can't vary it very much since your bullet will be hanging way out of the case and you won't have room to play with. My long range rifle has NEVER had a load work up for it. I just loaded what I had in my silhouette rifle and never looked back.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Eron, Doc lay post over on the Shiloh forum now then both guys are top guns, one year at Phoenix Doc Lay won top honors all 4 days. Chip Mate posts every now and then, but not often has won 3 or so Mid Range Nationals at Raton, he helped me a great deal via Phone, to get my 38-50 up and running. Brother Steve Garbe used too post on the Shiloh forum. It is not quite so bad as Brent would have you believe. Though it does get ugly once awhile.
Bryan Y who has placed in the top 3 at Raton several times posts there on Shiloh, is often seen posting, anyone that has placed in the top 10 at Raton I consider worth listening too, Woody who has set national records in And won the Military Rifle Class several times is also one heck of a silhouette shooter. Steve Rhoades who still holds one national Record in Scope class at 900 yards of 96-5X, I know I tied it a few years back at Raton, then found out I only had 96-4X. X's are those nasty tie breakers. Mike Rix who posts on the Shiloh forum and here is another top competitor in my book and a great guy to boot, we have been friends for many years since he first came to Raton. He comments are always worth reading.

Brian Chilson never posts and is a busy guy just not into computers, Jim Terry who never posts is my shooting pard, is the same email is nearly painful for him, Couple years ago at Byers Co regional he set a new world record at 800 yards for a 15 shot match 148-7x, it never got recorded due to issues at the NRA still he did it, he and I both in 2012 set a couple records again something about paperwork getting misplaced. Jimbo a few years ago won Day 1 at Raton in Creedmoor.

Dave Gullo, never posts anywhere and if asked a direct question will never answer it, he finally broke a drought for he had never won an America's Cup until in 2014 he finally won that match, the cup is fired in strict time limits, and with no spotter, it is the most daunting match you will ever shoot in, just to finish in the top ten in its self is an accomplishment. In 2013 Gullo came in 8th place, myself came in 7th place, the match is the brain child of Steve Rhoades-Mike Rix and others that was hatched some years ago one evening in the Cabins at Raton. It is the best run most difficult-most rewarding match in BPTR in the United States.

In 2008 at Raton, Pedersoli used to host a side match called the 5@200 match put on by Mr. Dick Trenk, this match is a put up or shut up event. No spotter you sat down fired 5 shots for group, it was a re-entry type match. MLV and others entered the match. I shot a 1.336 inch group, this match has classes, also as I was shooting my scoped 45-110. At the end of silhouette week awards are given, after 2 days of iron sight silhouette, 2 days of Scope Silhouette the winners are announced, I was the scope class winner, however I was also the winner overall as I had fired the smallest group of all the competitors for the entire week. I did that with a PP Bullet 516 grs money bullet with seth Cole paper.

I have never ever won the overall nationals in Creedmoor, nor have I ever claimed too. I have won the Scope class in Creedmoor at Raton twice, I have won the scope class twice at the regionals in Phoenix. Nor have I ever claimed to have won the overall at either event. I have won 4 cups in the America's cup, they give out overall match winner, 2nd, 3rd, high Sr., high Paper Patch, and High scope-heavy gun. I have 4 cups 2 high paper patch, and 2 high scope-heavy gun. All my cup awards have been attained with Paper Patched bullets. For several years I read this fella on the old Shooters.com from flyover country, talking about PP shooting and bullets, as this was the bullet of choice for Creedmoor in the early days, I wanted to learn more.

In a large sense, later on the Shiloh forum, this prof gent by the name of Brent was what encouraged me to give the PP thing a go.

Brent is correct that there is a lot of chaff on the forums, I got a bad start on the PP trail, found out the hard way at Phoenix in March of 2008. By July I had it sorted out.

So in the long run, what does it all mean, going by Brent's gauge almost everyone in BP long range is not worth talking too because they never won a major match. I want to think that is not the case at all. Otherwise why bother attending?

KW.

[BrentD]

Eron, Doc lay post over on the Shiloh forum now then both guys are top guns, one year at Phoenix Doc Lay won top honors all 4 days. Chip Mate posts every now and then, but not often has won 3 or so Mid Range Nationals at Raton, he helped me a great deal via Phone, to get my 38-50 up and running. Brother Steve Garbe used too post on the Shiloh forum. It is not quite so bad as Brent would have you believe. Though it does get ugly once awhile..

I would put only Eron and Doc in the group of "top" shooters. With the exception of Woody and very occasionally Michael Rix, none of those guys you mention will post much of anything at all about loads when someone asks the general audience. They aren't being mean or reclusive or secretive, they just don't post on those kinds of topics. Probably because they have gotten tired of the **** that flies over there too much. I'm not really sure I would call Woody a top shooter - maybe. He's about like me or a bit better. Ted is probably the most frequent poster of the for-sure "top" shooters (he is the only person on Shiloh that is not only Master Class in both irons and scope but also in contention to win every year), but he doesn't post that kind of note either.

Everyone of them will respond and be helpful if asked directly, Gullo included. They are all good people, they just aren't into internet therapy quite the way the bulk of the folks that take up bandwith on Shiloh are. You have to reach them differently than via a public forum.

[montana_charlie]

For any who don't feel that dry patching is the way to go, here is Rick Mulhern (Cast Boolits username RMulhern) doing it the wet way ...
http://s17.photobucket.com/user/Shar...ml?sort=6&o=49

[Sharpsman]

I wrap so that with the rotation of the bullet tightens on the patch itself.
Keep the tip of the bullet to my left and wrap and away from me.
The tip of the patch always towards the tip of the bullet, finished wrapping the patch the other tip will fall on the bottom of the bullet.


Attachment 127943

That photo looks slightly familiar!

I now patch dry...and use the groove at other end of patch board!

[Sharpsman]

For any who don't feel that dry patching is the way to go, here is Rick Mulhern (Cast Boolits username RMulhern) doing it the wet way ...
http://s17.photobucket.com/user/Shar...ml?sort=6&o=49

MC

I've changed that sequence up totally and dry patch now. I also use the groove in the board shown and a bullet 'stop' to assist in the placement of the patch! And I finally accepted the fact that Kenny W. knew what he was talking about ten years ago when he advised me to shoot an as cast PP bullet of .446" diameter using thin paper! As a 'hard-headed Irishman' I had to learn the hard way. I tried swaging down the .446" to .444" but that didn't work for me! But as DanT says....what does work and is the bees knees for me...is the .446" diameter with patch paper of .0018" thickness and the use of KIK 2F powder!!

Oh...my info isn't much good either probably as I've never won a match!

[montana_charlie]

For any who don't feel that dry patching is the way to go, here is Rick Mulhern (Cast Boolits username RMulhern) doing it the wet way ...

MC

I've changed that sequence up totally and dry patch now.

Oh...my info isn't much good either probably as I've never won a match!

The way you worded that reply, I could get the notion that you were the man in that patching video.
Would I be wrong?

CM

[Red River Rick]

MC

I've changed that sequence up totally and dry patch now. I also use the groove in the board shown and a bullet 'stop' to assist in the placement of the patch! And I finally accepted the fact that Kenny W. knew what he was talking about ten years ago when he advised me to shoot an as cast PP bullet of .446" diameter using thin paper! As a 'hard-headed Irishman' I had to learn the hard way. I tried swaging down the .446" to .444" but that didn't work for me! But as DanT says....what does work and is the bees knees for me...is the .446" diameter with patch paper of .0018" thickness and the use of KIK 2F powder!!

Oh...my info isn't much good either probably as I've never won a match!

You forgot to add "Famous Grouse" after the "Hard-Headed Irishman"..........but that would have made it to easy.

BTW, if there was "Anyone" that I would listen to, it would be you...............Mr. Mulhern.

Welcome back.............looking forward to more of your "INFO". Other's, as well, I'm sure.


RRR

[Sharpsman]

The way you worded that reply, I could get the notion that you were the man in that patching video.
Would I be wrong?

CM

I'm the guy in this one:

http://s17.photobucket.com/user/Shar...ml?sort=6&o=49

[montana_charlie]

I'm the guy in this one:

http://s17.photobucket.com/user/Shar...ml?sort=6&o=49

Close enough.
CM

[Sharpsman]

The next three photos are just a few steps I take in preparing my paper patch ammo! IMO...it doesn't make a 'hoot 'n hells' difference which way the patch is rolled on but I prefer my method because it works for me! The grooved patch board with the bullet stop assist me in getting the patch on consistently each time. I slightly wet the very top and aft side of the bullet with a little damp spittle off of my left index finger and roll the leading edge of the patch over the top and down the aft side...all while the bullet is in the groove. With a little downward pressure upon the bullet I then roll it away from me and can get the patch as tight as I so desire!

PB by Sharps45 2 7/8, on Flickr

I located this paper about ten years back and I've got enough to last me probably until my termination! It measures .00018" in thickness and is easy to work with!

SethCole by Sharps45 2 7/8, on Flickr

To say the least I am somewhat 'anal' about case preparation! Before I have a loaded cartridge ready to shoot I will handle each case possibly a dozen times. Below is one thing I do to each case because even after cleaning with the best media I have found 'crusted residue' remaining in so-called cleaned cases! Tain't necessarily so! When I'm satisfied my cases are clean I use an old type 'shoe shine dauber' coated with a little extra fine powdered graphite which takes a trip down into the case just prior to charging the case with powder! I then invert the case and tap any extra graphite out of the case. As I said..."I'm anal about case prep!"

Caseprep by Sharps45 2 7/8, on Flickr

[powderburnerr]

I have always been curious about the "stain in the case necks ,, I liked it a lot better when I would put a nice crosshatch in the case mouth,, may go back to the brush ,, sometimes one gets wrapped up in details that are superfluous when a couple simple steps is all thats needed.

[BrentD]

Stainless steel pins will clean those necks perfectly.

[Lead pot]

A bore brush will get the inside clean, but it will also roughen it up. I use SST pins mixed with ceramic.

[Don McDowell]

Run the cases in an ultrasonic cleaner, before polishing.

[Southron]

There is a moral to this story:

A well known professional golfer had just won a major tournament and he was being interviewed by a TV reporter.

The reporter made the comment to the golfer that the only reason he had won the tournament was because he had been "Lucky."

The golfer just smiled and commented: "Yep, the more I practice, the luckier I get."


so, now youi know how to get "Lucky" and win some matches. It works!