1980 Winchester 94 38-55 Loading Advice Sought

[rr2241tx]

I spent my Christmas money on an unfired Oliver F Winchester Commemorative in 38-55. Ultramax cowboy loads semi-sort of group at 100 yards but I'm failing miserably at making ammo for this rifle. I tried some Ideal 375248s in 30:1 as cast and run through a .378 sizer, both converted the barrel to a smoothbore in short order. This weekend, I tried two loads with hardcast boolits that measured .379 and had more lube than the Ideals. No leading that I can see, but they were tumbling by the time they reached the target. I had a consistent load with Winchester brass, WLR primer, 19.6 grains of AA5744 and the 230 grain hardcast bullet. Muzzle velocity was 1435 fps ES 40 SD 11 but a 2.5 x 3 foot target backer couldn't catch them all. The sights are solid and I was shooting off a benchrest beneath the forearm with slight down pressure and a tail bag so I don't think it was me. Increasing the powder charge resulted in unburned granules in the bore and a jump in ES/SD, so that's probably a dead end. Anybody ever got one of these rifles to shoot? I'd sure like to know what worked.

[skeettx]

Find a .382 bullet, lube and gas check to .380 or 381
30 grains of 3031
And let us know how you like this combo
Mike

[Hickok]

The bore on my Winchester 94 AE in 38/55 slugs out to .379". I use .381" boolits, but I cannot use Winchester brass, because the .381" boolit in the WW brass wont chamber in my rifle, as they are too tight in the neck area. I ordered some 38/55 brass from Starline, as it is thinner than the Winchester and it works perfect in my rifle.

Like Skeettz said you need a .380" to 381" diameter boolit.

[upnorthwis]

I had to seat a .379 boolit out to the point where it was engraving the lands when the lever had a quarter inch to go. Sort of like crunching it in with a bolt action.

[451whitworth]

The bore on my Winchester 94 AE in 38/55 slugs out to .379". I use .381" boolits, but I cannot use Winchester brass, because the .381" boolit in the WW brass wont chamber in my rifle, as they are too tight in the neck area. I ordered some 38/55 brass from Starline, as it is thinner than the Winchester and it works perfect in my rifle.

Like Skeettz said you need a .380" to 381" diameter boolit.

I think Skeettx and Hickok are right. My early '80's Crazy Horse Winchester 94 38-55 has a .380" groove and I shoot .381" 250gr. gas checked bullets out of it. Like Hickok said trying to chamber a .381" bullet in Winchester brass won't allow the lever to close. i used to turn the necks down on Winchester brass from .010" to .008" thickness to make the lever close. Then I found out about Starline's .0075" neck thickness brass and quickly abandoned that neck trimming.

[skeettx]

AND some folks use 375 Winchester brass

[enfield]

I don't think a 38-55 exists that would require a .378 sizer.

[MattOrgan]

My Chief Crazyhorse .38-55 is not particular at all. It will not chamber a round loaded with a bullet larger than .379. I bought some fired brass at a Gunshow that had been neck turned, but all that brass has done is develop mouth cracks after 4-5 loadings despite being annealed after each firing. Any way here is what I use:

Winchester case
Any large rifle primer
16 grains of 4759
lyman 375449 with GC (280 grains) or Lee PB 379-250 (250 grains) sized to .378 with Ben's Red
seated to crimp groove and crimped so it will feed through the magazine for Lever Action Silhouette. They are fairly soft, cast from my bullet trap scrap. I have zero leading. The are at about 1300 fps.

This load feeds smoothly and gives me groups ( 5 shot) under 2 MOA using a receiver sight. The only issue I've had with tumbling bullets is with a Saeco tapered bullet that weighed just over 300 grains as cast. They would tumble into a 4-5 inch group at 50 yards. I think it was too long for the twist in my rifle, but your 375248 bullet should not be a problem.

I've fired the 375449 in a pre-war M70 .375 H&H and currently shoot the Lee and the 375449 cast,sized,and lubed the same way in a Whitworth .375 with excellent results. Since I've never had anything but excellent results with my Crazy Horse I've never slugged the bore and done a chamber cast to see what the throat is like. My impression is that "modern" winchester barrels for .375 and 38-55 have the same dimensions.

Im guessing you need to find out what you chamber and throat look like before investing in anything. A chamber cast or a pound cast should give you an idea of your throat dimensions.

[cwheel]

First I'll start out by saying I have a somewhat early Winchester 94 with a 20" barrel and I just went through the same problem. First thing, slug your bore. Use a micrometer to measure the slug, most calipers can routinely have .002 error. It was reported to me that Winchester used 2 different bore sizes for 38-55 over the years. The change reportedly came in about 1920 production. Early production rifles were around .379, where later production was .377, I would expect you to find a .377 in your later production. Like 451witworth, I also have the problem with Winchester brass being to thick at the mouth to load the proper size bullet for the bore and still be able to chamber. I got around this problem by sizing the brass first, then running a .377 reamer into the case mouth in a metal lathe to the depth of a seated bullet + a little. If you just start out using Starline brass you won't have this problem and can move on to the proper bullet size. My older 94 with the larger bore needs a .381 bullet to get rid of the keyholeing of rounds. Also, to small of a bullet will fowl the bore with lead fast. My cast boolits are from a Ideal gas check mold # 375296 that drops boolits @.382. In my 20" barrel I load 29gr. of 3031 and get a average of 1600 fps. ( 18 fps std. dev. ) I wouldn't recommend this hot of a load for a rifle in poor condition, or for one with excessive headspace, and it's also reported that many of the older ones do have headspace problems. This load in my rifle is a full power hunting load, not intended for routine target use. First thing I'd suggest is slugging the bore, see what size you have and add .002 to that size. Also, ditch the Winchester brass and get some Starline 38-55 with the thinner case walls, mine likes the 2.085, those with single shots seam to like the longer brass. Even with a somewhat rough bore with open sights, 3 1/2" groups. Be cautions to not overheat the barrel, groups open up fast the hotter it gets.
Chris

[Nobade]

I have found making ammo for 38-55s is super easy if you load them like they are meant to be used. As noted above, the standard SAAMI chamber is not made to work with smokeless powder very well. With a groove diameter in the neighborhood of .380" (it is a 38 after all) and a fairly tight chamber which will normally only allow a .378" - .379" bullet to enter a fired case, it shouldn't work. But keep in mind this is a black powder cartridge. Loaded with black and a putty soft boolit of .377" or so, they shoot great and don't lead the bore. Personally I duplex load mine, .3cc AA5744 and 2.6cc FFFg black. Card wad, felt wad, and another card. Paper patched 9.3mm cast boolit. Cases never get resized or any die used on them. Boolits are a firm slip fit in the case mouths. By duplex loading, I don't have to worry about foul-out and can shoot as long as I like. If you don't want to use black, this same setup will work great with Blackhorn 209. It will also work well with naked grease groove boolits. Those same #375248s, cast very soft, over a case full of BH209, should work quite well as a smokeless load. The key is the bump-up to fill the throat and grooves, and hard cast boolits combined with smokeless powder won't do that.

-Nobade

[rr2241tx]

Lots of good advice here as expected. Thanks. Hoping that I can get silhouette accuracy with this rifle without resorting to heroic measures but not ruling that out entirely just yet. Would hate to abandon my stash of new Winchester brass but my High Wall schuetzen rifle only uses one case every 5 or 6 years so it would appear that I have an "adequate" supply of unsuitable brass for this rifle.

[cwheel]

Let me add one thing I missed in my post above. If you are loading with the RCBS " Cowboy " die set, the largest expander plug is to small @.3775. Think this die set comes with 2 plugs, large ( 3775. ) and small. Loading a .381 bullet with that expander plug will more often than not wrinkle the case seating the bullet. I made my own .379 to get the proper .002 press fit on the bullet to case, and not wrinkle the case. Don't know where you would get one made, but a sure thing you will need one with the larger bullets you are going to need to use. I also crimp with a Lee FCD last in a separate operation.
Chris

[Jon K]

I don't think a 38-55 exists that would require a .378 sizer.

FWIW...
I have one...Marlin 1893 24"Round Barrel circa 1902, measured chamber end .376x.3685 and .3765x.369 with 2 different micrometers. Measured it 4 years ago, and just now.
I think Skeettx and Hickok are right. I have had OFW & LF circa 1980 with same.



Jon

[cwheel]

Respectfully, most of the above posts back up what Lyman writes about loading 38-55 in their obsolete section of the 45th edition. Quote " where the grove diameter measures larger than .377, the exclusive use of cast bullets is recommended " The reason for that statement is not all 38-55 bores are the same. Winchester rifles with original barrels made before 1920 are bored just a little larger. ( .379 ) That is not saying Marlin did the same. ( not sure what they did ) This is why it is so important to start out by slugging the bore to see what YOUR rifle needs. Most will find older Winchester lever rifles are bored just a little bigger. For some reason, rifles made after about 1920 seam to have the grove dia. bored to the .377 up until production ended. Loading for the size of your bore is very important to producing good usable ammo. Always best to slug any rifle you intend to reload for to see what you have.
Chris

[TXGunNut]

Congrats on a fine rifle, a NIB Legendary Frontiersman followed me home last year shortly after Lyman introduced the 380681 mould. Naturally I loaded it over 43grs of OE FFg powder and broke the old girl in right. Those old commemorative rifles are right handsome rifles and they make good shooters as well. Not much on collectibles or commemoratives other than as shooters, many didn't make it as collectibles anyway.

[TXGunNut]

AND some folks use 375 Winchester brass

I save that for my .375, stuff is harder to find than Starline 38-55.

[45coltnut]

Slug that barrel. My bet is you'll find the bore to be around .378-.379 or up. My legendary frontiersman was .379". I cast a .381" boolit and it shot awesome! Best of luck.

[MarkP]

My Chief Crazy Horse is 0.379"+ and Texas Sesqucentennial is the same, Mfg'd 1983 & 1986. I am using the Lee 379-250 FN mold, it drops .381". I size to 0.3805" and lube with BAC. Using Frontier Headstamed 30-30 brass (Loaded by Hornady but cases made by Federal before they were making their own rifle brass in quantity) and Starline 38-55 brass. No chambering issues with either brass. The CCH has shot a few 3" groups at 175 yds

[rr2241tx]

Took advantage of the holiday yesterday and got help from my gunsmith. He ran a PTG Competition reamer into the chamber which opened the neck enough that Winchester brass actually works correctly in the OFW with .379 boolits. The amount of metal it removed was miniscule but it did recut the neck enough you could see it with a borescope and it made a short angled leade instead of having the rifling square edged right at the chamber end. He had cleaned up the crown last week but rainy weather precluded range testing that modification.

The day was perfect and warm, so I made the hour drive to the range after lunch with 8 loads to try and all the benchrest toys. After last trip I was not so sure I'd be on paper at 100, so I set the target frame at 50 yards and shot at NRA Smallbore Rifle targets. Winchester-Western JFP were shot first to establish a baseline. As expected, the Mike-O-Mite cutting oil residue threw the first two but the next three went into about an inch a little right of center and about 2.5 inches above POA. Next up was the last 5 UltraMax 245 grain cartridges. Then I shot 5 shot groups with 5744, WLR primers, and 230 grain Badman .379 38-55 cast bullets. 16.0 was too low pressure for consistent ignition. 17.0 had poor precision and two of the five hit noticeably tipped. 18.0 still had tipping but precision was (slightly) better. 19.0 put all of the bullets in straight but precision was still poor. 20.0 put three on the target and two went somewhere unknown. 21.0 put all five rounds in the 10 ring with 3 in the X: precision was good, not quite all touching but close. POI was 4 inches above POA, but I think I can hit a full-size chicken by shooting at its foot with that. Just to check, I shot one last WW-JFP then transferred the POI to the target I shot with them to start off and the last shot partially overlapped one hole of the original group.

I shot 40 cast boolits, most with much less powder than required for precision and got Zero Leading and generally excellent precision with WW-JFP, UltraMax, and 21.0 gr 5744. I have 140 pieces of brass cleaned and sized in RCBS Cowboy dies ready to be reloaded for practice and a CLARS match this Sunday. We'll see how that 21.0 grain load holds up at distance.

[rbertalotto]

I've won a number of 200 yard, off hand matches with my 1894 Winchester (Japan) in 38-55.......250g either Lyman or Accurate mold bullets of 1-20 alloy over 9g of Unique with a 3/4 X 3/4" piece of toilet paper to hold that little powder against the primer. Amazing accuracy. Benched at 100yds with a Lee Shaver tang site and a Lyman globe front it will shoot 1" - 1.5" groups all day long.

I have 8 38-55 rifles currently. From the Mini Sharps Lyman to a few vintage Marlins, Winchesters and Ballard and a few JES rebore/rechambers and ALL shoot this load with great accuracy.