Revolver Accuracy; Perspection, perception and reality?

[tazman]

Hope I contributed some. Please keep us informed how it's going for you.

Rick

You did along with Ole 5 hole group for the light charge suggestion and 44man for bullet/load development. The combination is what has got me out of my rut.
Instead of being frustrated, I am now getting better and more in control. This was exactly the push I needed.

[wquiles]

The combination is what has got me out of my rut.
Instead of being frustrated, I am now getting better and more in control. This was exactly the push I needed.

+1

My groups have already improved due to this thread

[cbrick]

You did along with Ole 5 hole group for the light charge suggestion and 44man for bullet/load development. The combination is what has got me out of my rut.
Instead of being frustrated, I am now getting better and more in control. This was exactly the push I needed.

+1

My groups have already improved due to this thread

Here's an accuracy tip, I do this on my long range match loads. Neck size only. Lay a fired case on it's side and place a bullet next to it to where the case mouth lines up with the crimp groove, measure how far down the case the bullet seats and size only this much of the case. It will give your straight wall case a slight hour glass shape, how much so depends on how loose your chambers are. Most chambers are loose enough that the loaded round will lay at an angle meaning the center line of the bullet is not in line with the center line of the throat/bore. Sizing this way you take up some of the slop in the chamber and keep the bullet in better alignment before firing.

Rick

[tazman]

Here's an accuracy tip, I do this on my long range match loads. Neck size only. Lay a fired case on it's side and place a bullet next to it to where the case mouth lines up with the crimp groove, measure how far down the case the bullet seats and size only this much of the case. It will give your straight wall case a slight hour glass shape, how much so depends on how loose your chambers are. Most chambers are loose enough that the loaded round will lay at an angle meaning the center line of the bullet is not in line with the center line of the throat/bore. Sizing this way you take up some of the slop in the chamber and keep the bullet in better alignment before firing.

Rick

Thanks for that. It makes sense when you think about it. I still need to get some brass sorted out so I can have some matched cases.
Every change I have made has improved my groups but I haven't gone whole hog yet. Looks like it's time to do it.

[cbrick]

Brass should be matched. When I get new brass it goes into an MTM box, that's it's home. It is never mixed with any other brass, not even in the tumbler. I don't reload any of that brass until it's all been fired. All brass in that box has been fired the same number of times. Seat bullets slowly paying careful attention to seating pressure, any case that feels at all different seating the bullet shouldn't be used for groups.

Rick

[tazman]

I am starting a notebook on how to properly load pistol ammunition for best accuracy. Lots of good stuff here.
I have a lot to learn. Even the small steps I have already taken have helped.

[44man]

The last two posts by Rick are correct. I have generous chambers in my .44 and .45 so I neck size to just below a boolit base. Only thing to watch for is eventually you will have to FL if they get hard to chamber. I use a spacer under the die ring so I can go back and forth.
I made a lot of spacers down to thin shim stock so I can crimp my boolits but when I load a Lee I use a thin spacer to ease off the crimp. That keeps me from adjusting dies all the time.
Every part of the loading process should be done slow with FEEL. I have had to stop a few from slamming my press handle at the speed of light.
As far as loading all brass the same amount for the whole box, I am the worst brass organizer EVER! It IS a good idea.
Another tip for all of you. Shoot all your rounds and sort out those cases that are out of a major group. Use for plinking and don't mix into the best brass. I even fail there and lose track. But measuring seat pressure will catch them.
I used to just hold the spring rod to the handle with a clamp but Babore liked my idea so well he made the aluminum blocks so I did it also. A few set screws holds to the handle and spring rod. I give him credit for a nicer set up.
Now my BFR's have tighter chambers so I FL for them because even chambers with powder and lube fouling will make rounds hard to chamber. I will clean the cylinders more often but can leave the barrels alone for as long as 3 years. I have cleaned them to see if there is any leading and never found any worth bothering with, barrels are Badger and hand lapped. Even my SBH has run 2 years without the barrels touched.
I had to clean blued guns in Ohio because of humid conditions and I always missed the first chicken with a clean gun and a 39 will lose the match. I should have stopped out in the boonies to fire one shot before getting to the club.

[cbrick]

I competed with Freedom Arms Revolvers and the chambers are quite snug there also, still neck sized to remove any possible slop. Because I shoot only CB I cleaned the cylinder after shooting session, no lead but bullet lube will build up and along with the tight chambers chambering gets sticky.

I did not clean the barrel but possibly once a year, maybe not then. In long range you get specific sight settings for 50-100-150-200 meters. Cleaning the bore changes those sight settings and it takes as many as 50 rounds to bring things back to normal. When I did clean the bore I always fired a complete 40 round match before going to a major 60 or 80 round Championship. When it was cleaned all that was ever found was minor powder & lube fouling.

Bottom line is that if everything is correct you won't lead the bore. If your bore is not leading leave it alone. Clean up the cylinder and the rest of the gun but your bore is right where it likes to be.

Rick

[44man]

One thing I came away with from competition is all the top shooters were relaxed and never looked to see what others were doing. Shooting was for fun and enjoyment and when done we went to help others and spot for them too. We did all we could to help anyone with problems.
Yet when in position to take the shot it took a firm hold and mental discipline for a perfect trigger pull. Breathing was important and when acquiring a target it was important to breath so the eyes did not give out, only at the very last was breathing controlled. Holding your breath for the entire time will bring on shakes too. Two minutes for 5 shots is very short but timing is everything.
The most frustration I ever had was archery when the release was allowed. 5 guys in a group with one setting a spotting scope. Told the shooter where he hit and the shooter would fiddle with sights and take 10 minutes to shoot an arrow. 5 guys doing that while we stood back in the heat and skeeters. My whole group would all shoot in less then 10 minutes. Then run into the jerks at the next target. Got like golf with a bunch more important then everyone else. My group was good enough to shoot demonstrations at the Sportsman shows with over 200 people watching us. I would blow up a balloon inside another and with two sided tape, put aspirin tablets around the balloons. I shot the aspirins off, broke the outer, then the inner balloon. Finger shooter too.
To relax is to ignore outside pressures but not what you need to shoot.

[apen]

Did you all have wind flags when you shot at 200m?

[44man]

Did you all have wind flags when you shot at 200m?

Never seen wind flags at IHMSA but maybe some clubs did. We learned to hold off just enough to hit steel somewhere to hold off the right amount, I never touched my windage adjustments and some days I had to aim at the next ram to hit mine. Kentucky windage works fine. Very few touched adjustments. Those that did had too many problems. Wind can blow a boolit so far there are not enough clicks.
The worst shoot I went to was in PA, they used white targets and there was still snow. Tried .22 and never seen a single target!
One day things slowed down so I set .22 targets for fun. With my Mark II I would take 10 targets down in the 2 minutes.
Nothing teaches shooting like IHMSA.
Rick is right about the bores, but you must keep the cylinders clean and new lube on the pin and ratchet. Most calibers have lube blow back on the brass but my 45-70 BFR never does, no need to even clean brass, they are never dirty. .475 will get so bad, I can't chamber rounds, just carbon and lube. STP has proven the best cylinder lube and it will also cushion steel from recoil.
I have tried neck sizing my BFR's but can't chamber. Too much pressure in the big guns. Not max but close. Accuracy comes where it is!
Freedoms do have good chambers but the .357 is a different animal then a .475 or JRH.
I remember an old guy that pushed the .357 S&W so hard he had to pound the ejector rod on a stake to eject cases. He is not a candidate for neck sizing! I just don't know how his S&W held up to what he did. I bet he was bending the crane pounding on the stake!
Once you get used to Creedmore you can center punch pop cans at 100 yards, open sights, at will.
One day we went to Quantico for a shoot, nobody there. Went to an office to ask and the sarge did not know. Found the guy that ran the shoot had a job change and moved away and nobody wanted to run the shoots. We stopped at my friends club to just shoot. Set up pop cans at 100 and took them down one after another until I had one that would not fall. I kept changing my aim point with no luck, 7R. Found the can full of holes. I set a target and shot a group to die for. Another guy had a Browning auto in .300 mag next to me. He seen my target and packed it in. He would not even talk to us!
Yes, even with a revolver you can make rifle shooters leave, let alone a single shot.

[44man]

I only wish I had the vision I had back then. Eyesight is so important. I was able to get both sights and the target in focus. Now I need a red dot to hunt. Have to wear glasses. To get the light gap at the front sight within .001" is gone now.
Now I need glasses to track deer and to gut or I will cut myself. Nothing has ever hurt me more.
You never lose how to load or shoot though and I still shoot the same, just have trouble seeing or stopping shakes. I am 77 so don't ask for a group on demand. I can still drag deer. I have no pains and feel 30 but stuff goes away. I will still shoot guns that you fear.

[apen]

The last two posts by Rick are correct. I have generous chambers in my .44 and .45 so I neck size to just below a boolit base. Only thing to watch for is eventually you will have to FL if they get hard to chamber. I use a spacer under the die ring so I can go back and forth.

That's why I asked about a custom sizing die. It looks like it would be a good idea if all the cylinder chambers and throats are the same. It looks like it would eliminate having 2 differently sized pieces of brass (which won't have the same POI) to deal with. I know that would mean getting the chambers reamed on a ruger.

[44man]

That's why I asked about a custom sizing die. It looks like it would be a good idea if all the cylinder chambers and throats are the same. It looks like it would eliminate having 2 differently sized pieces of brass (which won't have the same POI) to deal with. I know that would mean getting the chambers reamed on a ruger.

Almost all size dies are OK, usually it will be the expander not right.
The only size die I have wrong is a Lyman neck die for the 45-70. Expander does nothing and a .460" boolit will fall in. I had to gently crimp for a single shot. The neck die does not even touch brass.

[Airman Basic]

Have an old Lyman 45 Colt die set, (70's, I think, orange plastic box) Carbide. Works great with Winchester and Starline. Remingtons won't size down enough. Boolits fall right in. 45 ACP dies same vintage, Remington brass works fine. But then loaded rounds rattle around in the cylinder. Good idea with partial sizing. I'll try that.

[wquiles]

Good idea with partial sizing. I'll try that.

+1

I have to admit I thought about it, but never considered as I did not know if others considered worthwhile. Based on this thread I "will" now try it for sure

[tazman]

I went to the range again today with some different loads to try out. I was shooting consistently well(for me) and was controlling my trigger pull well. I waited until I was comfortable with what I was doing to do the testing.
I had a number of different boolits loaded with 2.7 grains of Bullseye that I shot off a rest tonight. I loaded them with Lee 38 special dies(carbide sizer).
I got to wondering after last week if the crimp die was doing a proper job since it is described as a modified taper crimp. It definitely doesn't look like a roll crimp. So I acquired an RCBS seater/crimp die and loaded up a bunch of test loads with a good solid roll crimp to near the bottom of the crimp groove.
I shot the loads crimped with the Lee dies first and got my normal groups. Nothing really outstanding there.
Then I shot the loads with the heavier roll crimp. Wow what a difference. The group size shrunk by nearly half with every boolit design I had loaded. I switched back and forth over the rest of the session between the two crimp setups and the firmer roll crimp was clearly the winner with both of my revolvers.
Looks like I need to go through my loaded ammo and run them all through the new crimp die.
The cylinder throats are a bit tighter on the Smith K38. A .358 sized boolit will not quite go through the throat under thumb pressure. Close but not quite. A .357 goes through easily. I tried some loads in the gun sized both .357 and .358 and saw no difference in accuracy between the 2 sizes. No visible leading with either size boolit.
I will stick with the .358 since that appears to work well with both revolvers. I may try it more later to see if it was just one night.
Comments, suggestions, and ideas on this are welcome.

[wquiles]

Way to go tazman